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Client wants to change a closed invoice
Thread poster: Laura Chiesa
Laura Chiesa
Laura Chiesa  Identity Verified
Local time: 12:59
Member (2017)
English to Italian
+ ...
Mar 16, 2021

Hello everybody,

this is the first time I use this forum, so please bear with me.

A good client of mine (agency) is reopening an old invoice, attempting to change the terms, and reversing the sum that was paid to me.
What happened is that his client (the final client) has realized - a month after accepting and paying for the project - that he has submitted duplicate work and the agency's proprietary software failed to recognize the duplicate segments and billed t
... See more
Hello everybody,

this is the first time I use this forum, so please bear with me.

A good client of mine (agency) is reopening an old invoice, attempting to change the terms, and reversing the sum that was paid to me.
What happened is that his client (the final client) has realized - a month after accepting and paying for the project - that he has submitted duplicate work and the agency's proprietary software failed to recognize the duplicate segments and billed them as new. The agency wants to retaliate exclusively against me, suggesting that I should have warned them of duplicate content. These were product sheets, where some segments varied and most of the content was indeed reps. We do not have specific agreements around reps: each task is proposed automatically by their proprietary software, which displays the number of words to be translated and the overall sum agreed for the job.
For me, this was a known client (a large corporation), which I assumed had no problems paying for repetitions, and for whom I already translated a series of product sheets that also contained lots of reps. I do not feel I was wrong in not alerting the PM of repetitions. Reps are part of a translator's work - some clients pay for them, others do not. I was never made aware of the agency's specific terms with the final client.
Do you think this is acceptable behavior on their part, or even legal?
My goal is obviously to retain my client (the agency), but I also find it borderline illegal that they would claim back a large sum of money after a project was archived - which means many people had scrutinized the project and found no fault with it. It was translated by me, reviewed by another translator, overviewed by a PM, accepted by the client, paid for by the client, and finally paid to me.
What would you do?
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Stephen Gagne
 
Jan Willem van Dormolen (X)
Jan Willem van Dormolen (X)  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 13:59
English to Dutch
+ ...
Wrong on so many levels Mar 16, 2021

That's some shitty situation they got you into. Of course, the agency is wrong in just about every aspect of this. I don't know here you live, but in most civilized countries this would indeed be illegal. They ordered a job, you did the job, they accepted the job, they paid for it, end of story.
Now the real problem is: you want to keep this client. Not sure why when they pull off this kind of stuff on you, but that's your call.
I would probably try and tell them as politely as possi
... See more
That's some shitty situation they got you into. Of course, the agency is wrong in just about every aspect of this. I don't know here you live, but in most civilized countries this would indeed be illegal. They ordered a job, you did the job, they accepted the job, they paid for it, end of story.
Now the real problem is: you want to keep this client. Not sure why when they pull off this kind of stuff on you, but that's your call.
I would probably try and tell them as politely as possible that they can't go back on prior agreements, and definitely not mention that their conduct is illegal (that would probably get them up the highest tree). And then hope they will listen to reason.
I wish you all the best of luck with this...
Jan Willem
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Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida
Yolanda Broad
ahartje
Tina Vonhof (X)
Christine Andersen
Arianne Farah
Stephen Gagne
 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:59
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Trouble Mar 16, 2021

Your client appears to be in trouble (probably due to an apparently chaotic IT system) and desperate to claw back some cash from anyone who is foolish enough to give it to them. Someone in their organisation has screwed up.

You delivered the job as required, and got paid. That is the end of the story.

It seems you are now being harassed by your client. If so, that may be a matter for the police. Harassment is a criminal offence in some jurisdictions. Keep all the co
... See more
Your client appears to be in trouble (probably due to an apparently chaotic IT system) and desperate to claw back some cash from anyone who is foolish enough to give it to them. Someone in their organisation has screwed up.

You delivered the job as required, and got paid. That is the end of the story.

It seems you are now being harassed by your client. If so, that may be a matter for the police. Harassment is a criminal offence in some jurisdictions. Keep all the correspondence. Your lawyer may need it, if it ever comes to that.


[Edited at 2021-03-16 10:46 GMT]
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Zeineb Nalouti
Yolanda Broad
Alison Jenner
Tina Vonhof (X)
Mervyn Henderson (X)
Vanda Nissen
Beatriz Ramírez de Haro
 
Joakim Braun
Joakim Braun  Identity Verified
Sweden
Local time: 13:59
German to Swedish
+ ...
Joke Mar 16, 2021

Forget about this client. In any business other than translation their suppliers would just laugh at this silly attempt. If you continue working for them you can never be sure you'll get paid.

Just tell them the matter is closed and if they don't like it, they can take you to court.

[Bearbeitet am 2021-03-16 11:23 GMT]


Angie Garbarino
Tom in London
Vadim Kadyrov
Beatriz Ramírez de Haro
Philip Lees
Arianne Farah
Stephen Gagne
 
Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida
Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 12:59
Member (2007)
English to Portuguese
+ ...
@Laura Mar 16, 2021

You have done nothing wrong and all fault lies on your client, but as I suppose you want to keep this client the problem here is how to save your relationship. It will require a good lot of tact and diplomacy, as well as serenity and probably some degree of flexibility. I wouldn’t like to be in your shoes. Good luck, Laura! Keep us posted…

Laura Chiesa
Jan Willem van Dormolen (X)
Angie Garbarino
ahartje
 
Sheila Wilson
Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 12:59
Member (2007)
English
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The way of working is important here Mar 16, 2021

Laura Chiesa wrote:
We do not have specific agreements around reps: each task is proposed automatically by their proprietary software, which displays the number of words to be translated and the overall sum agreed for the job.

I think it's important that you only worked from the number of words and the overall sum agreed for the job. You weren't privy to their calculations. They could have already factored in those repetitions. It isn't for you to query their maths when you don't even know what the figures were.

Had they clearly stated that there were no repetitions, and then you found that there were many -- then the line of responsibility would have been a little more fuzzy. Legally, you could still have ignored the calculation, but ethically you should probably have brought their attention to the anomaly.

Do you think this is acceptable behavior on their part, or even legal?

I think they're perfectly entitled to ask, but not to demand. And you, equally, are perfectly entitled to tell them to get lost -- in a polite way, if you like. If you really want to keep them sweet, perhaps you could come to a figure that you're willing to give up (after all, you probably did do exceptionally well on that project). Then you could offer to deduct that sum from invoice(s) to come. I'm thinking: maybe offer them 25-50% of the full loss, and offer to deduct that amount from the next invoice, or spread the refund over several invoices if the next isn't big enough. I absolutely would not agree to reopen the invoice and refund any money. I would only suggest offering anything at all if you feel somewhat anxious to keep them as a client. I don't see you're obliged to give them anything at all.


Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida
Yolanda Broad
ahartje
Alison Jenner
Emanuele Vacca
Viviane Marx
Vanda Nissen
 
3089491 (X)
3089491 (X)  Identity Verified
Luxembourg
Local time: 13:59
Make a list Mar 16, 2021

All the reasons why you think you invoiced the right amount.

It is important to demonstrate good faith.

As a goodwill gesture, offer an one-time discount of no more than 5% for the next invoice (only).

You might not get a chance to work for this final client again, but it might be possible to save the relationship with the agency.


Jan Willem van Dormolen (X)
Yolanda Broad
Stephen Gagne
 
Joakim Braun
Joakim Braun  Identity Verified
Sweden
Local time: 13:59
German to Swedish
+ ...
Beyond saving Mar 16, 2021

Teresa Borges wrote:

... as I suppose you want to keep this client the problem here is how to save your relationship.


No, it's an abusive relationship. Beyond saving, except perhaps if they withdraw their demands.
It's not even a matter of discussion. Outrageous and unacceptable in any business but ours.

We can all make mistakes and I'd consider a rebate if they hadn't paid yet. But reverse payment when, as you say, it's been scrutinised and accepted by the organisation? No.

Especially if this, like most assignments, is about fairly small money (a few hundred Euros, a thousand?). In sectors where rational business practises apply organisations would swallow the loss and improve their internal processes.


Yolanda Broad
Adieu
Beatriz Ramírez de Haro
Marina Taffetani
 
Jan Willem van Dormolen (X)
Jan Willem van Dormolen (X)  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 13:59
English to Dutch
+ ...
Too much Mar 16, 2021

Sheila Wilson wrote:
Then you could offer to deduct that sum from invoice(s) to come. I'm thinking: maybe offer them 25-50% of the full loss, and offer to deduct that amount from the next invoice, or spread the refund over several invoices if the next isn't big enough.


25-50% is too much for this. Maybe 5% as a token of good faith, but since you're in the right on all counts, even that would be extremely lenient on your part.


Yolanda Broad
Tina Vonhof (X)
Francesca Bernardis
 
Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida
Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 12:59
Member (2007)
English to Portuguese
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I agree with you in part... Mar 16, 2021

Joakim Braun wrote:

Teresa Borges wrote:

... as I suppose you want to keep this client the problem here is how to save your relationship.


No, it's an abusive relationship. Beyond saving, except perhaps if they withdraw their demands.
It's not even a matter of discussion. Outrageous and unacceptable in any business but ours.

We can all make mistakes and I'd consider a rebate if they hadn't paid yet. But reverse payment when, as you say, it's been scrutinised and accepted by the organisation? No.

Especially if this, like most assignments, is about fairly small money (a few hundred Euros, a thousand?). In sectors where rational business practises apply organisations would swallow the loss and improve their internal processes.


But let's quote what Laura said:

A good client of mine... + My goal is obviously to retain my client (the agency)...


 
Joakim Braun
Joakim Braun  Identity Verified
Sweden
Local time: 13:59
German to Swedish
+ ...
But Mar 16, 2021

Teresa Borges wrote:

(...)

But let's quote what Laura said:

A good client of mine... + My goal is obviously to retain my client (the agency)...


If she accepts their demands it's no longer a good client.

But I'd like to know how much money this is about. If it's a largish sum (say > 2,000 Euros) and the reps are maybe 90% of the total, then perhaps there are some nuances to the situation.


 
LEXpert
LEXpert  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 07:59
Member (2008)
Croatian to English
+ ...
Tell them you can't Mar 16, 2021

and that your accountant has informed you that by law, once an invoice has been validated and submitted to your tax authority, as it surely has by now, it can no longer be modified except on minor formal grounds (e.g. typographical error in PO number, forgot to update the invoice number, etc.), and that their subsequent unwillingness to pay is not grounds for revision of a duly submitted and accepted invoice. If they do not wish to pay, say that your hands are tied and that you legally have no r... See more
and that your accountant has informed you that by law, once an invoice has been validated and submitted to your tax authority, as it surely has by now, it can no longer be modified except on minor formal grounds (e.g. typographical error in PO number, forgot to update the invoice number, etc.), and that their subsequent unwillingness to pay is not grounds for revision of a duly submitted and accepted invoice. If they do not wish to pay, say that your hands are tied and that you legally have no recourse except to refer the unpaid amount to collections and subsequently for judicial enforcement as a bad debt.
If you are in Europe, I suspect this is probably not far from the truth - after all, allowing providers to arbitrarily revise old invoice amounts downward at will would be a huge invitation to tax fraud.
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Laura Chiesa
Thayenga
Tom in London
IrinaN
 
Samuel Murray
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Netherlands
Local time: 13:59
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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Compromise Mar 16, 2021

Laura Chiesa wrote:
The agency [is] suggesting that I should have warned them of duplicate content.


While you are obviously going to have to compromise, you should be firm that this is not your fault and that you are giving them a discount thanks to the years of good relations between you and them. Repetitions and duplicate or near-duplicate content is very common in our industry, and no translator is required to inform a client of duplicate content unless the translator actually suspects a mistake on the client's part. You can't be blamed for not realising that there had been a mistake in the files that were supplied to you by their system.


Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida
Alison Jenner
Philip Lees
Francesca Bernardis
 
Christopher Schröder
Christopher Schröder
United Kingdom
Member (2011)
Swedish to English
+ ...
Just say no Mar 16, 2021

I don’t think you have to compromise in order to keep this client. There is nothing wrong with just saying no, politely.

But if they don’t accept that, I would take it as a very clear sign that you shouldn’t work with them again.

Give them an inch and they’ll probably take a mile...


Beatriz Ramírez de Haro
Philip Lees
Fiona Grace Peterson
IrinaN
 
Adieu
Adieu  Identity Verified
Ukrainian to English
+ ...
Their screwup is their problem Mar 16, 2021

And you agreed to the job on the old terms.

On a side note, can you even retroactively "find" repetitions? EVERYTHING you've fed into their TM is now a repetition, possibly making any superficial attempt to reevaluate your past work look like 100% repetition at first glance.

[Edited at 2021-03-16 13:31 GMT]

[Edited at 2021-03-16 13:33 GMT]


 
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