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Gender-specific personal pronouns in English.
Thread poster: Richard Robinson
Christine Andersen
Christine Andersen  Identity Verified
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Gender is not really the issue - so you want to avoid drawing attention to it Aug 23, 2018

As I understand it, although more men suffer from the problem than women, gender is not in itself an issue. Therefore you want to avoid drawing attention to gender where it is not important.

I personally would find he/she etc. clumsy and irritatingly politically correct, especially where the text is dense and calls for concentration. It is a reasonable solution in short texts, legal, for instance, where it is important to underline gender equality, but not in an extended extract fro
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As I understand it, although more men suffer from the problem than women, gender is not in itself an issue. Therefore you want to avoid drawing attention to gender where it is not important.

I personally would find he/she etc. clumsy and irritatingly politically correct, especially where the text is dense and calls for concentration. It is a reasonable solution in short texts, legal, for instance, where it is important to underline gender equality, but not in an extended extract from a book. To me it underlines gender, which is not the primary concern in your text. The effects and symptoms of the problem are presumably the same for both genders - as with so many conditions.

Possibly alternating between he and she is the best solution, but don't shift too often! Simple souls like me find that confusing too...
There are no easy answers, as you can see.
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Richard Robinson
Georgie Scott
 
Kang Seok Lee
Kang Seok Lee
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There is no 100% perfect solution Aug 24, 2018

for translation as it is always connected with the feeling and preconception of the reader(of translated version).
Thank you to all respectful Proz. friends and really appreciate so helpful ideas.
May I ask Mr.Richard?,post later about what pronoun will finally be taken for your translation job.??

Thanks in advance.
KS from Korea

[Edited at 2018-08-24 03:07 GMT]


 
Michael Wetzel
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Plural would sound right to me Aug 24, 2018

Make sure you start off with the right question: Don't ask whether you are being sexist. Ask what your author would probably prefer and what your readers expect to see and how they will interpret your words.
Different cultures and subcultures and genres have very different conventions and expectations about these issues and different languages offer very different ways of dealing with them. I'm sure the APA and the BPS have published suggestions about how to deal with this issue.
... See more
Make sure you start off with the right question: Don't ask whether you are being sexist. Ask what your author would probably prefer and what your readers expect to see and how they will interpret your words.
Different cultures and subcultures and genres have very different conventions and expectations about these issues and different languages offer very different ways of dealing with them. I'm sure the APA and the BPS have published suggestions about how to deal with this issue.

I don't translate in the field of child psychology, but the issue of the significant use of singular forms (real loss in terms of style or content) vs. the insignificant use of singular nouns (no real loss in terms of style or content) comes up a lot in art, for example: in discussions of "the viewer." It's not a parent-child relationship, but a sense of intimacy and personal experience are generally important in this context.
Even there, I feel comfortable pretty aggressively converting things into plural forms, because it is a very invisible and generally effective solution. If 90% of things can be fixed using this technique, then it is easy to unobtrusively fix the other 10% with passive and the occasional "he or she." No one will be offended by the use of sexist or PC language and you won't be making your task unnecessarily difficult.

Looking at your example, I actually think it sounds more natural in a plural form: "Mothers who do not reflect ... their children, that is, who do not consider them as existing in their own right ... create ... what happens to children when their efforts to engage their mothers ..."

Maybe I'm tone deaf, but I honestly don't sense any problem in this particular example. I know you specifically said that you don't want to take this route, but I wanted to express my agreement with Amel. Alternating "he" and "she," using "it" to refer to a person, using "they" as a singular pronoun, and repeatedly having to radically rephrase sentences all seem like much more cumbersome (for you) and distracting (for the reader) solutions.
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MollyRose
 
Daniel Frisano
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e Aug 24, 2018

Use "e" as gender-neutral 3rd person singular pronoun, Spivak-style.

 
Heinrich Pesch
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How about the third gender? Aug 24, 2018

Nowadays people are getting conscious about the fact that there are people that don't belong to either male or female group. I wonder how this would be handled in English.
In Australia our guide called us all "Hello guys".
In Finnish schools tutors are invited not to address the children like "Quiet, boys" but always as "You children".
My suggestion: the parent, the child.


 
Richard Robinson
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references please? Aug 26, 2018

Thank you all for your input.

I wonder if anybody who hasn't already done so would care to add a link or reference to back up their arguments? Something like the APA or MLA style sheets, or OUP, would have more clout than just "in my opinion" or "it is no longer acceptable" (but maybe you DO work for OUP, in which case apologies).

At the moment I am tending towards a mixed solution, because I too seem to remember reading material where the pronoun changes. I really li
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Thank you all for your input.

I wonder if anybody who hasn't already done so would care to add a link or reference to back up their arguments? Something like the APA or MLA style sheets, or OUP, would have more clout than just "in my opinion" or "it is no longer acceptable" (but maybe you DO work for OUP, in which case apologies).

At the moment I am tending towards a mixed solution, because I too seem to remember reading material where the pronoun changes. I really like Sheila Wilson's reply, I want so much to believe that you are "right", and I'd love you to give me a link to follow up.

[Edited at 2018-08-26 11:50 GMT]

For instance, I remember looking at an early edition of this book
  • https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1219991.How_to_Get_a_PhD

  • back in 1988 or 89 and there it advises quite explicitly to use "they" for the general singular pronoun. (And once I've decided "they", am I also going to go for "themself" rather than "themselves"? Because sometimes it talks about the relationship of both parents (they) and the child, so if I'm already using "they" for the parents, they for the child becomes confusing. Here I would have to switch to he, or she.)





    [Edited at 2018-08-26 12:04 GMT]
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    Kay Denney
    Kay Denney  Identity Verified
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    Let's not forget that pronouns are substitutes for proper nouns, to be used simply to avoid repetiti Aug 26, 2018

    They: there really is nothing wrong with it. It is neither lazy nor sloppy. It's been used for ages and by all sorts of institutions.
    Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they If you don't agree that Wikipedia is a reliable source, skip to the bottom of the page for their sources!

    It: may be used for a child, but for me it can dehumanise them. In a medical context
    ... See more
    They: there really is nothing wrong with it. It is neither lazy nor sloppy. It's been used for ages and by all sorts of institutions.
    Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they If you don't agree that Wikipedia is a reliable source, skip to the bottom of the page for their sources!

    It: may be used for a child, but for me it can dehumanise them. In a medical context this is surely not a good idea? We're supposed to feeling sorry for a child who cannot engage his mother!
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_(pronoun)

    What the author wants: This is perhaps not relevant in that the author does not speak the target language well enough to make decisions about that language.
    What the author wants, surely, is to reach out to as many people as possible, so you choose the least annoying. Unless they have a hidden supremacist agenda of course!

    What the reader wants: a book that's clearly written so they can understand it easily. For some, this will mean using the language they are used to. The longer you've been used to something the harder it can be to let go, so older people will tend to cling harder to older language forms.
    I do volunteer work for an NGO with a focus on healthy food for healthy babies. Obviously we talk about mothers a lot, since they provide the healthiest food possible, breastmilk. We have recently introduced gender-neutral language. We talk about parents rather than mothers. In our first attempts to introduce this language, the people we were supporting were asked after each consultation whether they had noticed anything about the language we used. Funnily enough, it was the men who noticed it most, rather than the women. That is, precisely the group of people most likely to feel excluded if we referred mainly to mothers. By the way, nobody complained about it!

    I would opt for a flexible approach, using they as much as possible, but sometimes using gendered pronouns. For example, above I used "his" in "We're supposed to feeling sorry for a child who cannot engage his mother!" "Their" just didn't seem right in that sentence. I would make sure to balance out that sentence with another using a feminine pronoun in the next instance.

    I don't think that the fact that it affects more men than women should make any difference. There are many conditions, such as autism, where it is claimed that more men suffer than women. Very often, women are simply not diagnosed, partly because this statistic somehow translates in a doctor's mind into "women don't suffer from this", and also, because society invests more heavily in male health.

    In our NGO publications, we use either they, he or she to refer to the baby. It works. Let's not forget that pronouns are substitutes for proper nouns, to be used simply to avoid repetition. If the writing is well-structured, the person the pronoun is referring to should be plain to all.
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    Christine Andersen
    Natasha Ziada (X)
    Rachel Waddington
     
    Christine Andersen
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    Several examples in my weekend reading Aug 26, 2018

    From 'New Scientist' to 'Multilingualism - A very Short Introduction' (John C Maher, Oxford, 2017) I found singular they used several times. This is semi-formal writing for intelligent readers, but still on the 'popular science' side.

    - Sorry, can't give online references, but I noted them.

    Here are some references:
    ... See more
    From 'New Scientist' to 'Multilingualism - A very Short Introduction' (John C Maher, Oxford, 2017) I found singular they used several times. This is semi-formal writing for intelligent readers, but still on the 'popular science' side.

    - Sorry, can't give online references, but I noted them.

    Here are some references:
    https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/grammar/using-they-and-them-in-the-singular

    https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/they

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/they

    And some I have on my bookshelf:
    __________________________________

    The APA Style Guide
    is quite clear - write 'his or her', he/she etc. where gender is not known.
    Section 1.20, page 37 in my Concise Rules of APA Style Sixth Edition (The Official Pocket Style Guide of the American Psychological Association), 2010)
    __________________________________

    The Chicago Manual of Style, 16th edition
    5.46, page 215
    'A singular antecedent requires a singular referent pronoun ...'
    It points out that
    They is used in casual contexts
    Alternating masculine and feminine pronouns is awkward
    Employing an artificial form like s/he is distracting at best, most readers find it ridiculous.
    Prefer he or she, him or her, used sparingly...

    5.225, page 302
    gives nine techniques for achieving gender neutrality, including rephrasing.

    I think you can try it out free for a limited time online
    https://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/home.html

    ___________________________________

    As far as I can see, Michael Swan, Practical English Usage, tends to go for singular 'they'. However, he generally discusses spoken and informal language rather than very formal writing.
    ___________________________________

    Rebecca Gowers, Plain Words, 2015, revising and commenting on her Grandfather, Sir Ernest Gowers' earlier books and work on Fowler, goes all the way round, starting with the historical use of 'they', and the various objections to it, objections to the use of 'he', especially when it clearly means 'she'.
    I think the conclusion is in favour of avoiding the problem if you can, but otherwise resorting to they.

    ___________________________________

    To sum up:
    Sheila puts it so well - I agree with every word!

    At a glance, my feeling is that you need to decide on your register, and who you are writing for. Is this basically a formal, scientific book (extract), or is it more for general readers?

    The two guides for academic papers advise firmly against using singular they in formal writing. Chicago gives some help in avoiding it.

    The more general works take the pragmatic view that singular they goes way back, and is used by many respected writers. Criticism of it came with a relatively modern demand for stringent logic, but it is not always easy to avoid singular they without sounding clumsy and pedantic. Therefore it has its place when alternatives are clumsy or distracting.

    I hope I am not cherry picking... There are sure to be lots more references around.


    [Edited at 2018-08-27 00:11 GMT]
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    Richard Robinson
     
    neilmac
    neilmac
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    Lazy? Moi? Aug 27, 2018

    Rachel Fell wrote:

    Sheila Wilson wrote:

    There's absolutely nothing wrong with the singular "they".

    There is, in my opinion, very often: it can look lazy or sloppy.
    I would say use he/she, him/her, except where it can be avoided.

    [Edited at 2018-08-23 23:09 GMT]


    Sloppy is in the eye of the beholder. I've just finished the first draft of translation and in one paragraph I found myself using "him or herself"... but when it cropped up later in the page I decided it would be too clunky and used "themselves" after that. I don't think it looks sloppy or lazy at all if used properly, and the document I'm translating will be submitted to a professional journal, with every chance of being published as it is, unless of course some picky editor decides that double-barrelled gender pronouns are de rigeur nowadays.

    PS: I've just looked at my draft again and your comment has sown the seed of doubt- Now I'm wondering if I should've used the double whammy pronouns after all...

    [Edited at 2018-08-27 18:08 GMT]

    [Edited at 2018-08-27 18:08 GMT]

    Dagnabbit. ".... that each person has about themselves" only gets 8 hits on Google and it's what I was happily going to use until I read this thread. I'll wait and see what my proofer colleague thinks...

    [Edited at 2018-08-27 18:13 GMT]


    Richard Robinson
     
    Christine Andersen
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    It should not be overdone, but... Aug 27, 2018

    Singular 'they' is, as my grandfather put it about 60 years ago,
    'Neither man, woman nor Middlesex - and that's boys, girls and mixed infants to you, my dear!'

    Don't ask me why he came up with that remark. I spent sleepless nights trying to work out what he meant! We regularly passed a former Victorian school building, with separate doors for GIRLS, BOYS and MIXED INFANTS. I knew where Middlesex was on the map. We lived in Essex at the time, but I was still puzzled...
    ... See more
    Singular 'they' is, as my grandfather put it about 60 years ago,
    'Neither man, woman nor Middlesex - and that's boys, girls and mixed infants to you, my dear!'

    Don't ask me why he came up with that remark. I spent sleepless nights trying to work out what he meant! We regularly passed a former Victorian school building, with separate doors for GIRLS, BOYS and MIXED INFANTS. I knew where Middlesex was on the map. We lived in Essex at the time, but I was still puzzled...

    Even he/she and so on are not inclusive enough these days for the LGBT society and whatever other letters may be added.

    We may laugh at the Swedish 'hen' discussion, but politics aside, it is a VERY practical arrangement.
    https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/15916853/The-Swedish-pronoun-hen-how-and-why-it-is-and-isn-t-used

    OK, no more from me in this thread, I promise!
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    Richard Robinson
     
    Matheus Santos
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    Use "They/Them" Aug 27, 2018

    The best alternative in my opinion is to use "they" as a neutral personal pronoun. The book is about a problem 75 % of whose sufferers are men, but you still have the other 25% of whose suferers are women. If the problem affected 100% of men, it would be reasonable to use "He" or "Him", but in this case it is "better not to deal in absolutes".

    Rachel Waddington
     
    Richard Robinson
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    Thanks Aug 29, 2018

    Thank you, particularly to Christina with all those references. I think probably New Scientist is not far from the register I am aiming for. If anything this thread shows me that there are still a lot of different approaches and no single universally acceptable solution.

     
    Rachel Fell
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    N.B. Aug 29, 2018

    neilmac wrote:

    Rachel Fell wrote:
    There is, in my opinion, very often: it can look lazy or sloppy.
    I would say use he/she, him/her, except where it can be avoided.

    [Edited at 2018-08-23 23:09 GMT]


    Sloppy is in the eye of the beholder.

    I said "can", not "does". Clearly it depends on context, and "they" is obviously OK sometimes.


     
    Georgie Scott
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    Steven Pinker's take Aug 30, 2018

    "One theoretical possiblity is no longer an actual possibility: blow off concerns with gender inclusiveness, use masculine terms, and let the reader read between the lines and infer that women are included, too. No major publication today will allow this "sexist usage", nor should they. Quite aside from the moral principle that half of humanity should not be excluded from generic statements about the species, we now know that the major objections to nonsexist language that were first voiced fort... See more
    "One theoretical possiblity is no longer an actual possibility: blow off concerns with gender inclusiveness, use masculine terms, and let the reader read between the lines and infer that women are included, too. No major publication today will allow this "sexist usage", nor should they. Quite aside from the moral principle that half of humanity should not be excluded from generic statements about the species, we now know that the major objections to nonsexist language that were first voiced forty years ago have been refuted. Not only have the grace and expressiveness of the English language survived the substition of gender-neutral terms for masculine ones (humanity for men, firefighter for fireman, chair for chairman, and so on), but the generation of readers that has grown up with the new norms has turned the traditionalists' startle reaction on its head. Today it is sexist usage that stops readers in their tracks and distracts them from the writers' message (1)."
    The Sense of Style, p. 257-258
    (1) He references this study: http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1467-9280.1997.tb00691.x

    For me it would also be a mistranslation to use "he" where the gender is not specified in the source.

    Either use "they" or just keep repeating "the child", etc.

    As for editors/proofreaders/clients that find singular "they" sloppy or lazy but obviously haven't bothered to do any research on the subject, you could agree with them, but then you'd both be wrong.

    [Edited at 2018-08-30 09:57 GMT]

    [Edited at 2018-08-30 09:58 GMT]
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    Kay Denney
     
    B D Finch
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    Informal? Aug 30, 2018

    Michele Fauble wrote:

    Chris S wrote:

    I have often seen authors alternating between "she" and "he" from chapter to chapter in this kind of book.


    To my mind, "they" is still too informal for a publication of this kind.


    Yes, alternating between "he" and "she" is very common, I would say almost the norm.

    Agree about "they".


    The field here is psychology, which is, I believe, one of the fields in the vanguard of using gender-neutral terms. Alternating between "he" and "she" was an early solution, much used in the 1980s (together with s/he). That alternation convention was, looking back on it, ridiculous and confusing. The use of "they" as a gender-neutral, singular pronoun is far from new. If it was good enough for Shakespeare, it's good enough for me. It is generally accepted that the singular "they" is now used with "themself", not "themselves", even if both forms have been used historically.

    "Since at least the 14th century, they (including derivatives and inflected forms, such as them, their, theirs, themselves, and themself) has been used, with varying degrees of general acceptance, to refer to a singular antecedent.[29] This usage is often called the singular they. Today, it is unexceptional and often not regarded as incorrect, especially in informal language.[29][30]
    ...
    'Tis meet that some more audience than a mother, since nature makes them partial, should o'erhear the speech — Shakespeare, Hamlet
    There's not a man I meet but doth salute me / As if I were their well-acquainted friend — Shakespeare, Comedy of Errors"
    (29. Fowler, H. W. (2015). Butterfield, Jeremy, ed. Fowler's Dictionary of Modern English Usage. Oxford University Press. p. 814. ISBN 978-0-19-966135-0.
    30. Huddleston, Rodney; Pullum, Geoffrey K. (2002). The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language. Cambridge / New York: Cambridge University Press. p. 494. ISBN 0-521-43146-8.
    )
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-person_pronoun#Singular_they


     
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    Gender-specific personal pronouns in English.







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