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Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

article L 19 bis

English translation:

bis (italicized)

Added to glossary by Robert Miki
Jun 11, 2015 15:53
8 yrs ago
31 viewers *
French term

article L 19 bis

French to English Law/Patents Law (general)
Ainsi, la mise en œuvre des dispositions de l’article L 19 bis (1 et 2), dans le cadre des procédures de contrôle des prix de transfert sera plus aisée.

I thought of "Article/Section L 19 bis (1 et 2)" or "Article/Section L 19a (1 et 2)" as some sources put it but I am not quite sure.

Thanks for your help.
Proposed translations (English)
5 -1 bis (italicized) / A
Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

Non-PRO (1): Angus Stewart

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Discussion

Daryo Jun 11, 2015:
as a general rule NEVER mess with the numbering/referencing system, especially if the same script is used.
An exception could be if an international treaty is incorporated into national law, and all national law is written with a different numbering convention.
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Jun 11, 2015:
I agree entirely with Charles and others who say not to change it. I have worked on official versions of regulations for major international sporting events. When I have translated EN versions of original FR rules, when the international committee gets together, I'm generally in there with them at some point and we go through the document. It is essential that all lettering, numbering and referencing remains identical, even if this might seem slightly odd in English. When such documents are translated from EN into FR by others, then the original "Section, subsection, paragraph" etc are retained, again for ease of reference. It is common for rules and regulations to be discussed in meetings and the various versions have to be as easy to "navigate" as possible. That is hindered if the referencing system is translated.
Charles Davis Jun 11, 2015:
(Continued from previous post) I am not an uncritical fan of the EU English Style Guide, but I agree with this:

"In national legislation, if a provision is numbered Article 1 bis (ter, quater, etc.), do not change it to Article 1a (b, c, etc.) unless there is an official English translation that does so, as this would only cause confusion for anyone attempting to find the original."
http://ec.europa.eu/translation/english/guidelines/documents...

By the way, I am not a great fan of "official" translations of laws and personally don't tend to use them, at least not "as is". The Spanish Ministry of Justice has English versions of a number of basic Spanish statutes on its website, with its imprimatur, and they are not very good, by and large. Official (government-sanctioned) translations of Latin American constitutions are in some cases spectacularly bad. I expect the French manage these things better, but still. I accept that if you quote and refer to a translation of a law that renders 19 bis as 19A, you will adopt that numbering, but only in that case.
Charles Davis Jun 11, 2015:
I would not change "bis" When new sections are added to an existing law in the US, the UK, Ireland and Australia (and probably other countries), letters are used: a new section added between sections 19 and 20 is called section 19A, if two are added there they are 19A and 19B, and so on.

In France (and in Spain, for that matter), they are 19 bis, 19 ter, 19 quater and so on.

The same, actually, is true of house numbers. A new address between existing 19 and 20 is 19A in English-speaking countries and 19 bis in France (and again, incidentally, in Spain).

It seems to me that in these cases "A" and "bis" are respectively part of the number and not to be translated, and I would not change it in either case. I cannot see the logic of treating a French law as if it were an English or American (etc.) law. Thomas may well be right, but even if he isn't, adapting the numbering system strikes me as unnecessary and inappropriate, and likely to lead to confusion. If someone refers me to Article 19A of a law, and I look it up and find there is no Article 19A but only an Article 19 bis, I may well conclude that must be what they mean, but I might wonder, and I would be irritated.
Robert Miki (asker) Jun 11, 2015:
Yes, I think I will leave it as is. Moreover, "bis" is Latin so no need translating it.
Thomas T. Frost Jun 11, 2015:
Leave it as is I would leave it as is. "Article" also works in English, and it is not a reference to an English law where "Section" would be used. As for "L 19 bis", you just make it meaningless if you edit or translate it, unless you know for sure there is an authentic English translation of the law where another terminology is used.
Thomas T. Frost Jun 11, 2015:
Art. 150 A bis Here's an Art. 150 A bis to make it even more amusing:
http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCode.do?idSectionTA=LEGI...
Thomas T. Frost Jun 11, 2015:
Example in CGI Art. 76 A: http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCode.do?idSectionTA=LEGI...

Art. 76 bis: http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCode.do?idSectionTA=LEGI...
Thomas T. Frost Jun 11, 2015:
Careful Careful changing bis etc. to something else, as some 'monster' codes like the Code général des impôts can have both an Art. 76 A and Art 76 bis. You can easily ruin the meaning of you change these. In English law, "Section" would be used instead of "Article", whereas in EU law, "Article" is used in both English and French.
Robert Miki (asker) Jun 11, 2015:
I agree it is there. Yet there is divergence as to "bis" or "a" or something else.
My worry is what if the French writer had written "l’article L 19 a", "l’article L 19 b", etc? Would you have said the same thing?
philgoddard Jun 11, 2015:
Yes, this is about the tenth time we've had this question.
writeaway Jun 11, 2015:
Have you looked in the glossary? It should be there

Proposed translations

-1
8 mins
Selected

bis (italicized) / A

You can leave it in, but italicize it, or you can put it as A.

This is how I've done it, and it's what is recommended in the Council of Europe FR-EN Legal Dictionary.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Thomas T. Frost : You cannot put A as it means something else. As I just wrote below le Code général des impôts has an Art. 76 A, then Art. 76 bis.
21 mins
neutral Charles Davis : Bridge says of "bis": "in numbering in French legislation leave untranslated and italicise". I agree with this. He then says "(otherwise) A". I don't know what he means by "otherwise", but I don't agree with converting it to A here.
7 hrs
disagree AllegroTrans : I will go a step further and post a disagree: changing "bis" to "A" will COMPLETELY confuse any reader; anyway, what if there is already an "A" in the numbering system?
21 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "This is the most helpful answer almost plebiscited but not "A". Thank you all."
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