Feb 8, 2023 17:17
1 yr ago
50 viewers *
French term
Guitoune
French to English
Art/Literary
Poetry & Literature
Boats
Hello everyone,
I am translating a memoir about a dancer. In this section, she describes her visit to Sweden. She was out fishing, but then a storm came, so she danced for the sailors to pass the time:
"On m’a mise dans la « guitoune » sur la table. Ça sentait la graisse, le poisson, le vieux cuir, le goudron, la peine des matelots, et j’avais mal au coeur."
I have deduced that "guitoune" must be slang for "cabin" seeing as there is a table and there are strong smells (suggesting that it is an indoor space). I know that cockpit tents exist but the word "guitoune" doesn't seem to be used for that in French.
Can anyone confirm?
Thank you!
I am translating a memoir about a dancer. In this section, she describes her visit to Sweden. She was out fishing, but then a storm came, so she danced for the sailors to pass the time:
"On m’a mise dans la « guitoune » sur la table. Ça sentait la graisse, le poisson, le vieux cuir, le goudron, la peine des matelots, et j’avais mal au coeur."
I have deduced that "guitoune" must be slang for "cabin" seeing as there is a table and there are strong smells (suggesting that it is an indoor space). I know that cockpit tents exist but the word "guitoune" doesn't seem to be used for that in French.
Can anyone confirm?
Thank you!
Proposed translations
(English)
References
| CNRTL "abri sommaire" |
John Marston
|
Proposed translations
+1
5 hrs
Selected
deckhouse
It appears JB toured Sweden as early as 1928 and right through to the early 70s. When did this event occur, I wonder?
I don't think the word is obscure, as has been suggested here. Or maybe knowing words like that is just part of being archaic, as I have been accused of being. It entered French via Arabic, of the maghrébin variety anyway, and the colonial troops stationed in Algeria. Originally meaning 'tent', in the trenches of WWI it came to mean 'abri de tranchée'. In the slang of prostitutes it came to mean 'chambre' (1881), and later became slang for 'maison' (1901). In the middle of the 20th century its meaning reverted to 'tent', and guitoune "a vieilli dans ses autres acceptions". [Dict. Hist. de la langue française, ed. Alain Rey].
Chances are that JB was familiar with the word either shortly after WWI when it may have been commonplace slang, or in connection with prostitutes who would have been local to many of the establishments she danced in.
Below you will find a photo in which a Swedish Citroën dealer's showroom is referred to as a guitoune, so it really could refer to anything pretty much.
Is there any indication of the size of the boat? The earlier the event, the greater the probability that it was a small fishing boat, possibly one with a tarpaulin draped over it to keep some of the elements out, i.e. like a tent. Something a bit bigger and it could be the wheelhouse.
In a discussion about the boat pictured below, it is said "pourrais-tu virer la pustule que fait la guitoune et mettre le mat à la place, ça commencerait à ressembler à un voilier!", then "non je ne peut pas la virer la guitoune c'est ma chambre grrrrrr ". So it is something like the wheelhouse, in slang.
In another boat, it is indeed a tarpaulin or something similar:
"15h30 « enfin du Pacifique comme j’aime » dit le capitaine
19h GENOA tangonné / vitesse 5 knts / Cap 225° …. Parfait pour habituer petit Youki ….. si demain pareil ==> SPI
on fabrique une guitoune pour le soleil au dessus du poste de barre / très efficace"
There's even a picture of it (unless la guitoune is the helmswoman ;-) ).
https://tangaroa.jimdofree.com/livre-de-bord-1-marseille-nz/
Similarly here: " Cet été, nous retournons en Corse et quelques soirée de bivouac sont au programme. Je vais, ou plutôt ma belle mère, va amménager une guitoune sur mon SB550 [an overgrown rubber dinghy]. Elle va partir du davier pour passer au dessus du taud de soleil jusqu'au roll bar."
https://my.pneuboat.com/forum/10-amenagement-du-bateau/16265...
Guitoune is also used diversely for guards' guérites, for the cabins of customs officers, for ticket offices on harbour quays, that sort of thing.
If you consider it to be of the solid kind, then 'deckhouse' : "any enclosed structure projecting above the weather deck of a vessel and, usually, surrounded by exposed deck area on all sides."
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/deckhouse#:~:text=noun, pl...
I've had no luck finding a slang term for this.
If the 'tent' type, then sunshade, maybe. Run the word for a Google image search.
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Note added at 5 hrs (2023-02-08 23:02:34 GMT)
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I don't think the word is obscure, as has been suggested here. Or maybe knowing words like that is just part of being archaic, as I have been accused of being. It entered French via Arabic, of the maghrébin variety anyway, and the colonial troops stationed in Algeria. Originally meaning 'tent', in the trenches of WWI it came to mean 'abri de tranchée'. In the slang of prostitutes it came to mean 'chambre' (1881), and later became slang for 'maison' (1901). In the middle of the 20th century its meaning reverted to 'tent', and guitoune "a vieilli dans ses autres acceptions". [Dict. Hist. de la langue française, ed. Alain Rey].
Chances are that JB was familiar with the word either shortly after WWI when it may have been commonplace slang, or in connection with prostitutes who would have been local to many of the establishments she danced in.
Below you will find a photo in which a Swedish Citroën dealer's showroom is referred to as a guitoune, so it really could refer to anything pretty much.
Is there any indication of the size of the boat? The earlier the event, the greater the probability that it was a small fishing boat, possibly one with a tarpaulin draped over it to keep some of the elements out, i.e. like a tent. Something a bit bigger and it could be the wheelhouse.
In a discussion about the boat pictured below, it is said "pourrais-tu virer la pustule que fait la guitoune et mettre le mat à la place, ça commencerait à ressembler à un voilier!", then "non je ne peut pas la virer la guitoune c'est ma chambre grrrrrr ". So it is something like the wheelhouse, in slang.
In another boat, it is indeed a tarpaulin or something similar:
"15h30 « enfin du Pacifique comme j’aime » dit le capitaine
19h GENOA tangonné / vitesse 5 knts / Cap 225° …. Parfait pour habituer petit Youki ….. si demain pareil ==> SPI
on fabrique une guitoune pour le soleil au dessus du poste de barre / très efficace"
There's even a picture of it (unless la guitoune is the helmswoman ;-) ).
https://tangaroa.jimdofree.com/livre-de-bord-1-marseille-nz/
Similarly here: " Cet été, nous retournons en Corse et quelques soirée de bivouac sont au programme. Je vais, ou plutôt ma belle mère, va amménager une guitoune sur mon SB550 [an overgrown rubber dinghy]. Elle va partir du davier pour passer au dessus du taud de soleil jusqu'au roll bar."
https://my.pneuboat.com/forum/10-amenagement-du-bateau/16265...
Guitoune is also used diversely for guards' guérites, for the cabins of customs officers, for ticket offices on harbour quays, that sort of thing.
If you consider it to be of the solid kind, then 'deckhouse' : "any enclosed structure projecting above the weather deck of a vessel and, usually, surrounded by exposed deck area on all sides."
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/deckhouse#:~:text=noun, pl...
I've had no luck finding a slang term for this.
If the 'tent' type, then sunshade, maybe. Run the word for a Google image search.
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Note added at 5 hrs (2023-02-08 23:02:34 GMT)
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Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Tony M
: I agree with the notion of 'deckhouse', which fits with the rest of the description.
1 hr
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Thanks
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| neutral |
philgoddard
: As you say, "it really could refer to anything pretty much." I think deckhouse is possible if she's still on the boat, but we don't know that.
7 hrs
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It's like the judicial system: the translator will just have examine all the evidence and stick her neck out.
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| agree |
Mpoma
: That exchange relating to the photo of the sailing boat is curious but also indicates that the term appears to be understood as specifically maritime. At least for those speakers. Difficult to marry with the actual photo, or the origin of the word hmm
19 hrs
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Ta!
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| disagree |
Daryo
: All very interesting references, but there are some annoying little details, of the kind to smash to pieces the best theories // see reality check => this particular "guitoune" MUST be on solid land.
3 days 18 hrs
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thank you for taking the time to curate this wealth of research. Very much appreciated. I will, as you say, examine all the evidence... for now, I think I will try and find a slang term that could be used to mean "wheelhouse". Thanks again! :) "
44 mins
hut
https://www.proz.com/kudoz/english-to-french/other/101786-hu...
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Note added at 46 minutes (2023-02-08 18:04:17 GMT)
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https://www.komoot.com/guide/232991/huts-and-cabins-in-swede...
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Note added at 46 minutes (2023-02-08 18:04:17 GMT)
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https://www.komoot.com/guide/232991/huts-and-cabins-in-swede...
1 hr
Anastasia Kalantzi
Greece
Greece
Specializes in field
Greece
EnFrGreek Medical/Mechanical/Legal
Native in: Greek (Variant: Modern) , Greek (Ancient) (Variants: Koine (common), Doric, Homeric, Ionic, Aeolic) 
Works in: French to Greek, Greek to French, English to Greek, and 5 more.
Tent / Shelter / Refuge / Save Haven
https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/guitoune
https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/guitoune
https://www.dictionnairedelazone.fr/dictionary/definition/gu...
GUITOUNE n. f. XIXe siècle, guitoun. Emprunté de l'arabe maghrébin gitun, « tente », lui-même emprunté, par l'intermédiaire de l'arabe classique qaitun, du grec tardif koitôn, « chambre ».
https://cnrtl.fr/definition/academie9/guitoune
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guitoune
https://fouille-mot.fr/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Guitoune.p...
Étymologie :
De l’arabe maghrébin gitun (ou
gayton) de l’arabe classique qaitün
qui signifie tente.
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Note added at 1 ώρα (2023-02-08 18:25:24 GMT)
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***typo in the title: Safe Haven
https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/guitoune
https://www.dictionnairedelazone.fr/dictionary/definition/gu...
GUITOUNE n. f. XIXe siècle, guitoun. Emprunté de l'arabe maghrébin gitun, « tente », lui-même emprunté, par l'intermédiaire de l'arabe classique qaitun, du grec tardif koitôn, « chambre ».
https://cnrtl.fr/definition/academie9/guitoune
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guitoune
https://fouille-mot.fr/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Guitoune.p...
Étymologie :
De l’arabe maghrébin gitun (ou
gayton) de l’arabe classique qaitün
qui signifie tente.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 ώρα (2023-02-08 18:25:24 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
***typo in the title: Safe Haven
6 hrs
Maria Babcock
Canada
Canada
Native in English
Specializes in field
Canada
14 years' experience, accurate and fast
Native in: Spanish 
, English (Variants: Canadian, US)
Works in: Spanish to English, English to Spanish, French to English, and 1 more.
tent (portable lodge)
The word "guitoune" in French means "a portable lodge", that is a tent.
A white canopy-style tent.
A white canopy-style tent.
Example sentence:
Aide-moi à monter la guitoune et prend un marteau avec toi
1 day 15 hrs
bivouac
I'm piggybacking off Bourth's characteristically compendious research here. But I don't think a literal translation is what's needed.
Pursuing Jocelyne's explanations, the question is how much poetic licence should be allowed: for me, the fact that it is entre guillemets in the source text indicates that it's probably not ideal to translate with a literal translation, such as "deckhouse", however accurate that might be.
We need something with a bit of colour and/or irony, and hopefully with WWI connotations. I originally suggested "dug-out", but you can't have a dug-out on the deck of a boat, so that may be too much of a stretch.
"Bivouac" has definite military connotations, and ironic/humorous usage is feasible.
Other thoughts:
"lean-to" - no specific military connotations
"Nissen hut" - although invented in WWI, more common in WWII... and I think too specific as a structure for such ironic usage
Pursuing Jocelyne's explanations, the question is how much poetic licence should be allowed: for me, the fact that it is entre guillemets in the source text indicates that it's probably not ideal to translate with a literal translation, such as "deckhouse", however accurate that might be.
We need something with a bit of colour and/or irony, and hopefully with WWI connotations. I originally suggested "dug-out", but you can't have a dug-out on the deck of a boat, so that may be too much of a stretch.
"Bivouac" has definite military connotations, and ironic/humorous usage is feasible.
Other thoughts:
"lean-to" - no specific military connotations
"Nissen hut" - although invented in WWI, more common in WWII... and I think too specific as a structure for such ironic usage
Note from asker:
| Thank you for this important consideration, and the examples! |
4 days
French term (edited):
la « guitoune »
the local fishermen's tavern / the local dive / the "shed"
in this text, what this dancer calls la « guitoune » is some kind of enclosed space that MUST be on solid land.
Most likely it would be some kind of gathering place for fishermen, like a local pub / tavern / social club / club house, the fishing village equivalent of the village pub in the English countryside.
She is not much impressed by that fishermen's tavern, so as far as she's concerned it's doesn't rate more than being "a basic shelter from bad weather" = la « guitoune »
CL5 about the explanation, less sure what would be the best way of translating her personal opinion about the local fishermen's tavern [it must be "the" local tavern, a she used "la" not "une"]
Let's try to put this puzzle together ...
a memoir about a dancer. In this section, she describes her visit to Sweden. She was out fishing, but then a storm came, so she danced for the sailors to pass the time:
"On m’a mise dans la « guitoune » sur la table. Ça sentait la graisse, le poisson, le vieux cuir, le goudron, la peine des matelots, et j’avais mal au coeur."
(1) a storm came, so
(2) she danced for the sailors to pass the time during a storm
(3) On m’a mise ... sur la table
(4) dans la « guitoune »
So we have a dancer dancing on a table during a storm inside some kind of enclosed space ***she calls*** la « guitoune » (NOT la guitoune), that enclosed space being ... ???
A On a fishing boat?
THAT would be an admiral feat of balancing skills!!! And some very peculiar feature of Swedish boat building - provide fishing boats with deck houses with high enough ceilings, so that sailors onboard with nothing better to do during a storm could have the occasional guest dancer dancing on the table to alleviate their boredom on a fishing boat in the middle of a storm? Yeah sure, nothing strange there ...
B On solid land?
No way, that's boringly normal!
Personally, "boringly normal" will do.
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Note added at 4 days (2023-02-12 19:14:23 GMT)
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The concept of reality check / internal coherence of the text ... boring and old-fashioned?
Maybe, but you neglect it at your own peril.
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Note added at 4 days (2023-02-12 19:18:00 GMT)
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possibly:
the "den"
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Note added at 4 days (2023-02-12 19:24:26 GMT)
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oops ... an admirable feat of ...
Most likely it would be some kind of gathering place for fishermen, like a local pub / tavern / social club / club house, the fishing village equivalent of the village pub in the English countryside.
She is not much impressed by that fishermen's tavern, so as far as she's concerned it's doesn't rate more than being "a basic shelter from bad weather" = la « guitoune »
CL5 about the explanation, less sure what would be the best way of translating her personal opinion about the local fishermen's tavern [it must be "the" local tavern, a she used "la" not "une"]
Let's try to put this puzzle together ...
a memoir about a dancer. In this section, she describes her visit to Sweden. She was out fishing, but then a storm came, so she danced for the sailors to pass the time:
"On m’a mise dans la « guitoune » sur la table. Ça sentait la graisse, le poisson, le vieux cuir, le goudron, la peine des matelots, et j’avais mal au coeur."
(1) a storm came, so
(2) she danced for the sailors to pass the time during a storm
(3) On m’a mise ... sur la table
(4) dans la « guitoune »
So we have a dancer dancing on a table during a storm inside some kind of enclosed space ***she calls*** la « guitoune » (NOT la guitoune), that enclosed space being ... ???
A On a fishing boat?
THAT would be an admiral feat of balancing skills!!! And some very peculiar feature of Swedish boat building - provide fishing boats with deck houses with high enough ceilings, so that sailors onboard with nothing better to do during a storm could have the occasional guest dancer dancing on the table to alleviate their boredom on a fishing boat in the middle of a storm? Yeah sure, nothing strange there ...
B On solid land?
No way, that's boringly normal!
Personally, "boringly normal" will do.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 days (2023-02-12 19:14:23 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
The concept of reality check / internal coherence of the text ... boring and old-fashioned?
Maybe, but you neglect it at your own peril.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 days (2023-02-12 19:18:00 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
possibly:
the "den"
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 days (2023-02-12 19:24:26 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
oops ... an admirable feat of ...
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Mpoma
: Ever the contrarian! See Bourth's adduction of evidence from that conversation between two sailboat enthusiasts. Simplest thing would be if the asker could enlighten us about clues to the context.
3 hrs
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You are the one being "contrarian" to elementary logic // What more clues do you need? Dancing on a table in the cabin **of a fishing boat** in the middle of a storm for an audience of bored sailors with nothing more urgent to do - perfectly normal?
|
Reference comments
33 mins
John Marston
United States
United States
Native in English
Specializes in field
United States
Conscientious FR>EN Translator
Native in: English (Variant: US)
Works in: French to English, English
Related KudoZ points
:
8
Reference:
CNRTL "abri sommaire"
I think the second entry confirms "cabin":
2. Familier
a) Abri sommaire. Synon. baraque.Dans chaque jardinet du lotissement on avait édifié au moins une guitoune en planches ou en carton pour les lapins, les poules, le chien (Cendrars, Homme foudr.,1945, p. 311).
2. Familier
a) Abri sommaire. Synon. baraque.Dans chaque jardinet du lotissement on avait édifié au moins une guitoune en planches ou en carton pour les lapins, les poules, le chien (Cendrars, Homme foudr.,1945, p. 311).
Reference:
Peer comments on this reference comment:
| agree |
Daryo
: www.cnrtl.fr is one of the best sources
3 days 21 hrs
|
Discussion
She is still on the boat, hence my initial guess of "cabin". We know this as she goes on to say "c’est la mer qui m’a calmée elle-même. Je l’entendais régulièrement donner des coups contre la coque du bateau, contre l’avant de la coque du bateau."
As for the size of the boat, it is simply referred to as "le bateau". The only adjective used is to describe the mast as "petit" (so, small mast, small boat? But still big enough for a table that she can dance on!)... Perhaps "wheelhouse" is the way to go. Thank you all for helping me to giving me plenty of options to consider.
I don't think that "une guitoune" is a particularly obscure word. I've heard it before, but couldn't remember what it means, still had to check.
"Ça sentait la graisse, le poisson, le vieux cuir, le goudron, ..." could fit with ANY location linked to fishing. Go to a farming village and try to escape the smells of farming. Why would be a fishing village any different?
Maybe the fact that this gathering place on solid land - not not a rocking boat was full of all these smells made her call it la « guitoune » ?
The idea that it's a tavern doesn't really go with the idea of "smelling of fish". Fishermen are likely to be quite punctilious about ridding themselves of any fishy smells before they go out to enjoy themselves: they smell fishiness all day and all night when at sea, and must get utterly sick of it!
Asker: from this part of the memoir you're doing, are there any clues about *where* this dancing took place? On a boat or on dry land? That would help quite a bit...
Well, being French she would use a French word for anything that reminds her of s.t. familiar from her experience in France, no matter where in the word that would happen to be?
Is she still on the boat, or has it returned to land because of the storm?
That turned out to be a very good question!
Is she still on the boat, or has it returned to land because of the storm?