| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | Market for German-English legal translations Thread poster: Robert Hess
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| Why either/or? Use NMT and other means to find new opportunities. | Feb 27, 2023 |
My feeling as a freelancer in this language combination for 10+ years: The market is not drying up, whether because of DeepL or anything else.
Yes, there are always shifts in the market and developments in technology. But everyone who thought translators would be replaced by CAT tools was wrong, just like everyone who thinks that translators will be replaced by NMT is wrong. We move with the times and find ways to make our work more efficient/economical. Except for specific purposes... See more My feeling as a freelancer in this language combination for 10+ years: The market is not drying up, whether because of DeepL or anything else.
Yes, there are always shifts in the market and developments in technology. But everyone who thought translators would be replaced by CAT tools was wrong, just like everyone who thinks that translators will be replaced by NMT is wrong. We move with the times and find ways to make our work more efficient/economical. Except for specific purposes (creative flow in literary/poetry translation, perhaps data security) no one translates with pencil and paper any more. But we still translate. I know of a number of colleagues who have integrated NMT into their workflows for inspiration/comparison. They still do the translation, and often tweak or rewrite or reject what the NMT feeds them in favor of their own versions. If you set it up right (so that NMT isn’t fed into your system as the preferred solution), your work isn’t post-editing, but more like working with a supercharged CAT tool—one containing segments from millions of human translators. And that helps them do more of the work they love more efficiently, leading to greater volumes and better money. The important skills in this scenario: subject expertise, training with technology, and hypervigilance for potential problems or unintended consequences/implications. Haven’t we always needed those? That’s what makes us translators, not dictionaries.
Whenever my workflow has dried up (happens from time to time), it tends to be not that the overall market is bad or dying, just that I was looking for work in a place where there no longer was any. I have always found that there was plenty of good work just around the corner from where I had been looking. It’s a marketing/positioning problem (and maybe a mindset question) more than anything else. There’s always something new you can be learning, and when you find out what it is, it opens up new opportunities. So I respectfully disagree with @MatthiasBrombach’s idea of “back to business as usual.” It’s about finding ways of adapting what you know to work with what’s going on around you (which includes @DanLucas’s larger economic outlook). ▲ Collapse
| | | | Dan Lucas 
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:38
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
| Well, it IS now a (technical) recession | May 30, 2023 |
Dan Lucas wrote: Matthias Brombach wrote:
Companies in Germany are still desperately looking for skilled or even unskilled workers, we have a still decreasing unemployment rate, and yesterday Germany's biggest trade union successfully gained a collective agreement to compensate for the effects of the high inflation. Therefore your statement cannot be true, Dan, sorry to say so. My statement being that Germany is in recessionary territory? Okay. Well, let's wait and see. Neither the PMI nor the consumer confidence index counts as "hard" data (unlike, say GDP). I very much hope that I am wrong, that GDP does not decline and that Germany and other countries get through the next 12 months with minimal hardship. I have set a reminder to look at this thread in 6 months. Regards, Dan
Well, six months have passed and German GDP has fallen for two consecutive quarters, which is the technical definition of a recession.
Having said that, while the situation in Germany clearly isn't great, it isn't as bad as I had feared in early 2022. So net-net I'm more, rather than less, positive on the outlook. But again, forecasting is hard, and we're going to get it wrong. The only question is how far your projections diverge from reality.
To get back to the original question, it is indeed possible that these difficult business conditions have been affecting the market for DE-EN translations.
Regards,
Dan
| | | | | Reverse psychology | May 30, 2023 |
Dan Lucas wrote: Well, six months have passed and German GDP has fallen for two consecutive quarters, which is the technical definition of a recession. Having said that, while the situation in Germany clearly isn't great, it isn't as bad as I had feared in early 2022. So net-net I'm more, rather than less, positive on the outlook. But again, forecasting is hard, and we're going to get it wrong. The only question is how far your projections diverge from reality.
Forecasts are always wrong. I think the more pressing issue emerging over the past six months is AI.
| | | | | Poor Germany: one still has to work to make a living! | May 30, 2023 |
Dan,
Thank you for the link and yes, there may be a slight decline in economic growth in Germany in figures, but not only do other figures tell me that there's still a shortage of skilled and unskilled workers, but also my own experience as a person, who had to step out of the earlier comfortable business as a translator, proofs that there are still possibilities even for persons with an age of 56 years to step in or back into the labor market despite the fact that I was out of business as... See more Dan,
Thank you for the link and yes, there may be a slight decline in economic growth in Germany in figures, but not only do other figures tell me that there's still a shortage of skilled and unskilled workers, but also my own experience as a person, who had to step out of the earlier comfortable business as a translator, proofs that there are still possibilities even for persons with an age of 56 years to step in or back into the labor market despite the fact that I was out of business as an employee for more than 17 years:
https://t1p.de/vhnhj
Any interested in working in Germany with your own two hands? I could recommend you to a temporary service that would pay me a reward for every successfully placed worker in several industries here in and around Kiel. We could share that reward...
[Bearbeitet am 2023-05-30 13:50 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:38
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
Matthias Brombach wrote:
proofs that there are still possibilities even for persons with an age of 56 years to step in or back into the labor market despite the fact that I was out of business as an employee for more than 17 years
A commenter on one of my mailing lists recently opined that changing career in your 50s or 60s is a fool's errand. I didn't agree with him, and the existence of people like yourself supports my view.
I agree that a downturn that stays at the level of a technical recession is a minor problem in the grand scheme of things, and other economies may be recording their own technical recessions before long. Let's hope they're all short and shallow.
Dan
| | | | | A fool's errand... | May 31, 2023 |
Dan Lucas wrote:
A commenter on one of my mailing lists recently opined that changing career in your 50s or 60s is a fool's errand. I didn't agree with him, and the existence of people like yourself supports my view.
I agree that a downturn that stays at the level of a technical recession is a minor problem in the grand scheme of things, and other economies may be recording their own technical recessions before long. Let's hope they're all short and shallow.
Dan
...would have been to still ride on an already dead horse hoping that the good times will come back again. Whenever and wherever possible, I still will continue this business, as long as the few clients left pay my price and when there's time. And so far it's still good money for the time in between when I have to change employers.
Thank you for respecting my way, Dan, much appreciated.
Honestly, I am rather pessimistic about the things to come in the near future, but they will affect all of us in all countries all over the world. I expect as a future main cause for a crisis in the world's economy the extraordinary dept ratio of the major industrial economies and a banking crisis our generation hasn't experienced so far. Maybe I just experience a sort of high tide in Germany before the ebb stream follows, caused by the progress made in China, in automation and AI. No single economy will remain unaffected by rejections on a global level.
| | | | Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:38
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
| It is not the critic who counts | Jun 1, 2023 |
Matthias Brombach wrote:
A fool's errand... would have been to still ride on an already dead horse hoping that the good times will come back again.
Agreed. In a market in structural decline, the smart money usually gets out. Of course career change can be hard, and yes, the odds may be against us as we get older. Nevertheless, our goal is to be not an "average" person but instead the sort of person who beats the odds. And it's only those who try that count. In this particular case the person who made that statement does not seem old enough himself to have tried the course of action that he dismisses to casually. He is not, in other words, the man in the arena.
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. Teddy Roosevelt.
Overblown rhetoric to apply to a humble career in translation?
Not a bit of it!
Dan
| | | | | Whose statement, please? | Jun 1, 2023 |
Dan Lucas wrote: Matthias Brombach wrote:
A fool's errand... would have been to still ride on an already dead horse hoping that the good times will come back again. Agreed. In a market in structural decline, the smart money usually gets out. Of course career change can be hard, and yes, the odds may be against us as we get older. Nevertheless, our goal is to be not an "average" person but instead the sort of person who beats the odds. And it's only those who try that count. In this particular case the person who made that statement does not seem old enough himself to have tried the course of action that he dismisses to casually. He is not, in other words, the man in the arena.
My statement (quoted) or yours? Just to clarify this. You know, as a German, I am a friend of clear and directly addressed communication, before I put an "agree" by error below your in other respects brilliant post in our arena. Thanks.
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Robert Hess wrote:
I just joined Proz,
2) If it is a general trend, what do you think are the likely causes?
I recently rejoined after 7 years away, one reason being to see the general opinion on this matter.
The first 2 threads I saw were on this topic.
And now this one.
My experience over the last year or 2 has been that several respected Fr-Eng folk with 20+ years under their belts have jacked it in, at least some to take permanent employment doing something else.
I'm getting less agency work, and I decided to ask - they all said there was less work about, and as regards those who number jobs sequentially, a quick analysis actually bore that out.
As regards this place itself, it looks quieter in terms of kudoz Qs and jobs in my areas.
As for the causes.... for Fr-Eng, I think the availability of free MT has to be factor (in my areas, the output, while not flawless, is certainly OK if, say, someone just needs to get the idea of a document for further discussion).
I'm going to say Brexit has to be factor as smaller firms in particular appear not to bothering to export so much (in both directions).
It's difficult to be certain of course, and anecdotes aren't data but I've talked about this a fair bit with Fr-Eng people who've been round the block a few times, and Something Is Afoot.
| | | | Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:38
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
Matthias Brombach wrote:
My statement (quoted) or yours? Just to clarify this. You know, as a German, I am a friend of clear and directly addressed communication, before I put an "agree" by error below your in other respects brilliant post in our arena. Thanks.
The person who made the statement is somebody on one of the JA-EN mailing lists. Seems like an intelligent chap, but I don't see eye-to-eye on him in this particular matter.
Regards,
Dan
| | | | David GAY
Local time: 21:38
English to French
+ ...
| different perspective | Jun 2, 2023 |
Dan Lucas wrote: It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. Teddy Roosevelt. Overblown rhetoric to apply to a humble career in translation? Not a bit of it! Dan
This guy was a politician, wasn t he
yes, it perfectly applies to politicians.
Personally, I m not a politician but consider myself an entrepreneur. So I choose to work in fields where it s possible to do a very good living. I m not interested in fields where one has to work hard to earn peanuts.
[Edited at 2023-06-02 12:46 GMT]
| | | | Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:38
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
David GAY wrote:
This guy was a politician, wasn t he
yes, it perfectly applies to politicians.
In what way? You think that a belief that the critic standing on the sidelines should be given less heed than the person (an entrepreneur, for example) who is in the middle of the action is a belief that applies to politicians, but not to other people?
Dan
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David GAY
Local time: 21:38
English to French
+ ...
Dan Lucas wrote: David GAY wrote:
This guy was a politician, wasn t he
yes, it perfectly applies to politicians. In what way? You think that a belief that the critic standing on the sidelines should be given less heed than the person (an entrepreneur, for example) who is in the middle of the action is a belief that applies to politicians, but not to other people? Dan
politicians nowadays act under the pressure of certain lobbys. They maximize their utility by taking decisions which serve the interests of these lobbys. As an entrepreneur, one takes decisions that maximize one s own utility.
For instance, why work in a business where prices and low and follow a downward trend.
Have you heard of the BCG matrix
| | | | Tony Keily
Local time: 21:38
Italian to English
+ ...
| Something Is AIfoot | Jun 5, 2023 |
[quote]Charlie Bavington wrote:
It's difficult to be certain of course, and anecdotes aren't data but I've talked about this a fair bit with Fr-Eng people who've been round the block a few times, and Something Is Afoot.
One thing that has me worried is the number of people telling us about the ineffable wonderfulness of human beings as compared to the pesky bots. Hardly a day goes by but a thread goes up telling us how irreplaceable we all are. I mean, sitting next to somebody on a plane about to take off and being told in a feverish whisper that the likelihood of an aviation incident with full hull loss is statistically insignificant isn't very reassuring either, but at least in that case you know that the whisperer has the facts on their side.
[Edited at 2023-06-05 07:24 GMT]
| | | | Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:38
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
| Can't see the relevance | Jun 5, 2023 |
David GAY wrote:
politicians nowadays act under the pressure of certain lobbys. They maximize their utility by taking decisions which serve the interests of these lobbys.
I don't see how this explains your earlier statement implying that a preference for giving greater weight to the person actually engaged in an endeavour (rather than to those who criticize from the sidelines) is a hallmark of politicians.
If that were the case, then logically politicians would always support those engaged in action, even if that action went against their own interests. Yet above you say they act to maximize their utility.
Well, whatever.
Dan
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