| Pages in topic: [1 2] > | Refusal of translation agency to pay 投稿者: Andriy Bublikov
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Translation agency refuses to pay test translation (from Russian to French: 1848 words in 3 files) as it was agreed before, under the pretext of large quantity grammatical errors (verbal concord, sequence of tenses, singular, plural etc.) made by translator. I have not answered to any translation agency advertisement.
I have never pretended that I am native French speaker and understand that my translation should be approved by native speaker. Translation agency itself contacted me ... See more Translation agency refuses to pay test translation (from Russian to French: 1848 words in 3 files) as it was agreed before, under the pretext of large quantity grammatical errors (verbal concord, sequence of tenses, singular, plural etc.) made by translator. I have not answered to any translation agency advertisement.
I have never pretended that I am native French speaker and understand that my translation should be approved by native speaker. Translation agency itself contacted me for this test accomplishment.
I have received from Translation agency no style guide, no references, no instructions about terminology, no translation memory no Termbase, no explanations about End Customer or proofreader linguistic preferences before test starting only promises to pay this test.
I have sent to translation agency 3 bilingual files for evaluation. I have received only 2 evaluation forms without any argumentation, only: overall impression, with the refusal to continue proofreading under the pretext of bad translation quality.
When I asked translation agency for proofreader argumentation. Translation agency has sent me 1 bilingual file of 3 (320 words of 1848) with unclear proofreader comments without any argumentation of proofreader point of view.
Translation agency only affirms that evaluation done by native French speaker approved by End Customer.
Translation agency has not interne native French speaker proofreader.
Here are native speaker translators’ opinions:
http://www.proz.com/forum/french/301177-besoin_de_vos_commentaires.html
http://www.translatorscafe.com/cafe/MegaBBS/forumthread27043.htm?start=1 ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Was test for customer? | Apr 24, 2016 |
So let me get this straight - an agency said they would pay for a test translation. You completed the translation, and they said the quality was not up to their standards, so they will not take you on as a translator. Not only that, but they won't pay the agreed amount?
A test translation is just that - a test. It is a chance for an agency to get to know whether they want you as part of their pool. If they want you to do more than a small test - and 1800 words is definitely a large ... See more So let me get this straight - an agency said they would pay for a test translation. You completed the translation, and they said the quality was not up to their standards, so they will not take you on as a translator. Not only that, but they won't pay the agreed amount?
A test translation is just that - a test. It is a chance for an agency to get to know whether they want you as part of their pool. If they want you to do more than a small test - and 1800 words is definitely a large test! - then I think it would be a paid translation. But to refuse to pay you because the quality is poor? That makes no sense. The point of the test was to find out whether they wanted you as a translator, and the answer is no. But if there was no stipulation that you would have to PASS the test to get paid, then I don't know what their grounds are for refusing payment.
As a business, they can choose to either ask potential translators to do a short, unpaid translation (in which case they risk not sorting out all the translators they don't want), or a longer, paid translation. In the latter case, they're agreeing to pay a small amount that should pay off in terms of their business model because they weed out more translators based on the longer translation.
In short: I think they should be paying you, but it sounds to me like there were so many mistakes in your translation that you don't have a chance of being accepted into their pool and shouldn't be arguing for that. Try to get them to pay you the agreed amount.
In the future, though, only translate into languages that you CAN do at a native level. Why would you have submitted a paid test translation without having it edited by a native speaker? The test translation is your chance to show them the quality you will provide, and you can't be surprised that they don't accept you when you don't deliver your best. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Already discussed here | Apr 24, 2016 |
Dear Andriy,
This matter has already been discussed at Proz.com at some length just a few days ago under the title "Besoin de vos commentaires".
It emerged from that discussion (in both English and French) that the agency did not actually send you a firm purchase order for this lengthy test, but an email indicating that the test would be paid if they found it acceptable (or words to that effect).
Why are you bringing it up again?
| | | | | That changes things | Apr 24, 2016 |
Jenny Forbes wrote:
Dear Andriy,
This matter has already been discussed at Proz.com at some length just a few days ago under the title "Besoin de vos commentaires".
It emerged from that discussion (in both English and French) that the agency did not actually send you a firm purchase order for this lengthy test, but an email indicating that the test would be paid if they found it acceptable (or words to that effect).
Why are you bringing it up again?
If the agreement was that you would only get paid if they found it acceptable, and they didn't find it acceptable (and you said in your original post that it wasn't up to native standards...), then what exactly is the issue?
Learn from your mistakes. Next time, pay a native speaker to proofread the text or only translate into languages in which you are fluent enough to deliver a high quality translation without a proofreader.
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| What do your terms and conditions for agencies say about this? | Apr 24, 2016 |
I have a 3,000 word contract used with agencies to cover all of these contingencies.
Remember, we are also running a business and can set our own terms and conditions and payment due dates.
[Edited at 2016-04-24 14:41 GMT]
| | | | Andriy Bublikov 
ウクライナ
Local time: 21:06
フランス語 から ロシア語
+ ...
このフォーラムのモデレーター TOPIC STARTER | Thank you Kelly | Apr 24, 2016 |
Thank you Kelly,
Kelly Neudorfer wrote:
Learn from your mistakes. Next time, pay a native speaker to proofread the text or only translate into languages in which you are fluent enough to deliver a high quality translation without a proofreader.
Thank you Kelly,
Sorry, but translation agency knew that I was not native speaker. This is a translation agency from my country. They are not native speakers no more. Thy have not a native speaker as they had affirmed in the beginning.
If they want to get translation of 1848 they should be ready to pay it. They can ask for an unpaid test 150-250 words.
I know that have no chance to get paid. The purpose of this topic was to draw attention to translation agency politic regarding translators.
I will learn from my mistakes.
| | | | | About same previous post in French | Apr 24, 2016 |
Hello Andry,
I commented your post in French. I am not a native speaker of French (which I think you can tell)and maybe not everyone who commented previously is a native speaker of French either. Just for the record!
English is however my native tongue. I think you are perhaps not a native speaker of English. One of the golden rules of professional translation is to translate into one of one's native languages. I have one. Some people have more. In some circumstances one may be temepted not to respect that rule, but it is generally a mistake in all but informal situations. Professionally it can be suicidal.
I think the answers you received to the previous post in French covered a range of opinions about what had happened. It was suggested that :
- perhaps the agency was being a little bit unfair in suggesting a test of way over the standard 200-400 words
- that the agency was perhaps not that professional in considering a non native for a test in the first place
- that it was perhaps not wise of you to accept a test of that size, nor to accept to translate professionally intoa language in which you are not native, whether the agency was aware of this or not
Also, if the agency had clearly said they would pay for a test - which may even have been a badly disguised attempt to pass off a job as a test and thus pay less - they should pay.
Finally, it was also said that depending on the local legal provisions that apply in the Ukraine, you may take steps to recover the money due. You may even seek to obtain a court judgement that you should be paid. However, in either case, cost and time for the amount involved probalby mean it is just a waste of time.
The overall conclusion of the debate was that it is probably best to put it down to experience and learn from it how to deal with agencies when it comes to tests and to reconsider about the type of work you ought to accept, irrespective of what an agency might request you to do.
P.S. If you post the same message in another language, I suspect you will obtain very similar comments. In fact, perhaps it might have been best to post only where colleagues with experience of Ukranian-based agencies could provide more specific advice. The general advice will probably not change whatever the language!
[Edited at 2016-04-24 23:12 GMT]
| | | | Ilan Rubin (X)
ロシア連邦
Local time: 21:06
ロシア語 から 英語
| No "golden rule" :-) | Apr 25, 2016 |
Nikki Scott-Despaigne wrote:
One of the golden rules of professional translation is to translate into one of one's native languages.
Nikki, this rule works fine in language pairs where there is a large body of native translators who know well their source language. So if it's a pair from En, Fr, De and Esp that's fine. But Ru to En and, I expect, Ru to Fr suffers from a dearth of native En (Fr?) speakers who understand the source language. 95% of the time native English translators in this pair think they do but don't. So the usual way to translate this pair is to hire a native speaker of the source with excellent knowledge of the target, and then a native speaking editor if native-level quality is needed. Most of my work is editing Ru to En for a Big4 company and their translators are excellent, so it works fine.
PS - in this case I have no sympathy for Andriy. You shouldn't be paid for bad translations. There is a difference between 'bad' (where a native editor cannot fix the language without reference to the source text, or where he/she has to fix every third word) and 'non-native' (where the editor can fix the translation easily).
[Edited at 2016-04-25 04:40 GMT]
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| Native Speaker vs non native speaker | Apr 25, 2016 |
I believe this has been discussed here at length as well, but it depends on what the agency expected. You said they had no native speaker, and of course there are many non native speakers of French who are perfectly able to write acceptably or even very well in their non native language.
If you agree to translate a text as a non native speaker then the agency probably thought that you are able to write well in your non native language, however, it has to be expected that the odd se... See more I believe this has been discussed here at length as well, but it depends on what the agency expected. You said they had no native speaker, and of course there are many non native speakers of French who are perfectly able to write acceptably or even very well in their non native language.
If you agree to translate a text as a non native speaker then the agency probably thought that you are able to write well in your non native language, however, it has to be expected that the odd sentence may sound a bit unidiomatic or that the structure of some sentences could be improved etc. The agency probably didn't expect a translation full of mistakes, even from a non native speaker.
The point I am trying to make is, that you are the only one who can judge whether you can accept such a project or not - but I think you have already learned that lesson.
[Edited at 2016-04-25 04:58 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Send them an invoice. | Apr 25, 2016 |
Since the outsourcer is based in your own country, you may have a reasonable chance of getting paid for your work. I have no idea what the small-claims procedures are like in Ukraine or if you should hire a collection agency or lawyer or what you should do after sending them an invoice. You need those answers from Ukrainian colleagues.
If you feel that you have fulfilled your end of the agreement, send them an invoice instead of discussing the matter with them and then see how they... See more Since the outsourcer is based in your own country, you may have a reasonable chance of getting paid for your work. I have no idea what the small-claims procedures are like in Ukraine or if you should hire a collection agency or lawyer or what you should do after sending them an invoice. You need those answers from Ukrainian colleagues.
If you feel that you have fulfilled your end of the agreement, send them an invoice instead of discussing the matter with them and then see how they react. Take a close look at what you actually agreed to provide and what they actually agreed to pay before you send them the invoice.
And if someone agrees to buy a specific thing from you, with specific characteristics, for a specific price, and to be delivered on a specific date, that is a contract and a purchase order. It does not matter if there is a PDF with "purchase order" written in capital letters at the top.
If it does go to court, I have no idea what a judge will do with a contract that says your client may or may not pay you for a translation that may or may not be fit for its purpose. That is a fairly odd agreement. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Samuel Murray
オランダ
Local time: 20:06
2006に入会
英語 から アフリカーンス語
+ ...
| A paid test is paid, even if the tested party fails the test | Apr 25, 2016 |
Andriy Bublikov wrote:
Translation agency refuses to pay test translation ... as it was agreed before, under the pretext of large quantity grammatical errors...
Unless they said beforehand that they would only pay if you pass the test, they must pay for the test.
The test succeeded in its goal: to determine if the translator is any good. The translator was promised payment for taking the test. The translator took the test, and must now be paid. The fact that the translator utterly failed the test does not change anything.
I suppose the agency could refuse to pay for a paid test if it turns out that the translator had misrepresented himself and possibly even knew that he would likely fail the test.
I have never pretended that I am native French speaker and understand that my translation should be approved by native speaker. Translation agency itself contacted me for this test accomplishment.
The fact that they contacted you (and not the other way around) does not relieve you of your duty to ensure that the client knows what you can and cannot do before continuing with negotiations , including test translations. Whether or not you are a native speaker of either of the languages is an important piece of information, and if the client seemed unaware of it or if there was a possibility that the client have had a mistaken belief about your capability, you have the duty to inform him. The fact that you are unable to provide translation quality that requires no additional work (except for possible polishing by a proofreader) is vital information that you should tell the client.
Sorry, but arguing "he contacted me first, therefore he knows all about me, and therefore he is necessarily satisfied with my capabilities" comes down to misrepresentation by the translator.
I have received from Translation agency no style guide, no references, no instructions about terminology, no translation memory no Termbase, no explanations about End Customer or proofreader linguistic preferences before test starting only promises to pay this test.
If you had failed the test translation because you did not adhere to a non-existent style guide etc, or because you did not comply with the preferences of the proofreader, then that is not your fault, and you did not misrepresent yourself, and you should get paid for the test.
If these are the main issues with your translation, then I suggest that you explain to the client that your translation is accurate, good and acceptable generally, and that if the client had wanted you to follow some style guide that deviates from normal style in that language, he should have given it to you beforehand. It can be useful to reply to e.g. 10 of the proofreader's edits, with short but convincing, polite and non-aggressive explanations or proof that the edit does not relate to an error but to a preference.
| | | | Samuel Murray
オランダ
Local time: 20:06
2006に入会
英語 から アフリカーンス語
+ ...
| Andriy, please respond to Jenny's claim | Apr 25, 2016 |
Jenny Forbes wrote:
It emerged from that discussion ... that the agency did not actually send you a firm purchase order for this lengthy test, but an email indicating that the test would be paid if they found it acceptable (or words to that effect).
Is this true, Andriy? Or has Jenny misinterpreted the information in the other thread?
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| The golden rule needs expanding, perhaps | Apr 25, 2016 |
ILAN RUBIN wrote: Nikki Scott-Despaigne wrote:
One of the golden rules of professional translation is to translate into one of one's native languages. There is a difference between 'bad' (where a native editor cannot fix the language without reference to the source text, or where he/she has to fix every third word) and 'non-native' (where the editor can fix the translation easily).
I can certainly identify with that difference. I specialise in tidying up English texts written in or translated into English by non-native speakers of English. I'm no mind-reader, so the English has to be clear, but it can be ungrammatical and/or unnatural. "I will do something yesterday" can only be queried and sent back unedited, and sentences full of English words that make absolutely no sense in context are impossible to correct.
So I would say that you need to translate into your native language, or into a language where you have a sufficiently high level to be able to convey a clear message. And of course a professional translator should either have obtained authorisation to deliver a less-than-perfect target text to an agency client, or should pay an editor to revise it before delivery.
| | | | | Please clarify | Apr 25, 2016 |
Samuel Murray wrote: Jenny Forbes wrote:
It emerged from that discussion ... that the agency did not actually send you a firm purchase order for this lengthy test, but an email indicating that the test would be paid if they found it acceptable (or words to that effect). Is this true, Andriy? Or has Jenny misinterpreted the information in the other thread?
Yes, please clarify us on this CRUCIAL point. The previous thread was entitled "Besoin de vos commentaires". In the course of the ensuing discussion here it eventually became apparent that the agency had not said it would pay for the test but that it would pay if the test was found satisfactory (or words to that effect). The agency apparently did not find the test satisfactory and therefore says it will not pay for it.
If I have indeed misinterpreted or misunderstood that, please let us know.
| | | | Samuel Murray
オランダ
Local time: 20:06
2006に入会
英語 から アフリカーンス語
+ ...
| For whom was the test? | Apr 25, 2016 |
Jenny Forbes wrote:
[The way I understand it,]the agency had not said it would pay for the test but that it would pay if the test was found satisfactory. ... The agency apparently did not find the test satisfactory and therefore will not pay for it.
I can think of one type of scenario where an agency might be willing to pay for a test translation, but only if the translation is good. Sometimes it is not an agency itself but rather the agency's client who requests the test translation. In such a case, the agency would want the test translation to create a good impression, and then the test might even be proofread by a second person before it is delivered to the party who requested the test. In other words, the test is not a test of individual translators' individual abilities but a test of the agency's ability to produce the finished product.
This seems even more likely to me due to the fact that the test translation was nearly 2000 words long, which meant that it would have been very expensive for the agency to have the test done.
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