| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Finnish translator only gets three weeks to work on J.K. Rowling novel
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| | Stefano Papaleo 
Italy
Local time: 14:00
Member (2005)
English to Italian
+ ...
| No unions please... | Jun 5, 2012 |
Giles Watson wrote:
Are screenwriters or even lawyers that organised internationally (as opposed to nationally)? Would most translators want to emulate them (include me out)?
Me too. Unions have brought more harm to labour & workers than the wildest capitalist. Besides, in our field, on a global scale that is pure wishful thinking.
More to the point, what shroud could a translators' cartel shake at the various Harry Potter publishers around the planet who want to protect their investment in translation rights and whose biggest fear is instant competition from a volunteer crowd? The incremental value of a decent translation delivered some time later is not much of a bargaining counter.
Exactly. Either you have real bargaining power or you have none. HP (or any product of such sort) will sooner or later end up in crowd-sourcing. It started spontaneously from the fan base and without consent it will soon become authorized and much appreciated by the big players.
I'm happier than ever I haven't read a single word of HP in any language and certainly won't start now
| | | | Stefano Papaleo
Italy
Local time: 14:00
Member (2005)
English to Italian
+ ...
Ty Kendall wrote: Stefano Papaleo wrote:
It is ok to discuss bad behaviour but one is not entitled to do it if they accepted such behaviour in the first place, nobody pointed a gun at her. Following this logic would lead to some very morally dubious outcomes. So if someone is coerced into something (accepting it even under some duress), they don't have a right to bring it to light at a later date when they feel less threatened?
Coerced? If someone hands you a piece of paper where it says they're gonna come tonight and rip your liver off while you're sleeping and if you don't sign it they're gonna tell everyone how bad you are and you DO SIGN, who's fault is it? Because that is what's happened here.
I find it morally dubious to first sign and then cry wolf. I seriously doubt the 3 books she already translated weren't already published, right? And even if you wanna discard everything and kick me out and retranslate using my work so be it... I don't sign and - if I choose to - I write what she wrote. She is actually more likely to face legal and image problems now that she signed all those agreements and wrote what she wrote that if she hadn't. Lawyers have Internet access too and Hollywood care about their image.
Was the Catalan translator a superhuman? Did she end up as a beggar and outcast?
A bully is a bully as long as you let him be one. As long as the bully isn't the headmaster's son i.e. someone untouchable who you don't stand a chance against - in which case you find yourself up a certain creek without a paddle!
First, we only heard her side of the story. I'm certainly no big fan of the corporate world (small or big) but I've seen way too often how facts are twisted, half-truth said and how easy is to root for the home team.
If you don't like the headmaster and his son you can always change school Come on. She is no poor miner in a Dickens' novel who has to feed 8 kids and is the victim of the mine's owner. Do you really think that if she had refused the guys would really stop the whole money-making machine and blame her as the culprit and then what? The fans would hunt her down? Come on...
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 20:00
Chinese to English
| Still complete rot, Stefano | Jun 5, 2012 |
Stefano:
"It is ok to discuss bad behaviour but one is not entitled to do it if they accepted such behaviour in the first place, nobody pointed a gun at her."
Er, just no. To give a really obvious comparison: I live in China, where people are famously overworked. If you don't get much of an education, your choice are: go into a factory and work 72 hour weeks; beg. By your logic, those who choose to make a living and get factory work are "not entitled" to complain about ... See more Stefano:
"It is ok to discuss bad behaviour but one is not entitled to do it if they accepted such behaviour in the first place, nobody pointed a gun at her."
Er, just no. To give a really obvious comparison: I live in China, where people are famously overworked. If you don't get much of an education, your choice are: go into a factory and work 72 hour weeks; beg. By your logic, those who choose to make a living and get factory work are "not entitled" to complain about how hard the work is.
That's just silly.
Really, telling anyone they're "not entitled" to talk/complain about their working conditions is silly. People gonna talk. Humans like communicating. And the fact that I choose to work for a certain organisation at a certain time doesn't mean I have to endorse everything they do.
"Exactly. Either you have real bargaining power or you have none."
This is also silly. The world isn't black and white, and it isn't all about power relations. Things like respect, standards and professionalism are important.
Giles:
You may be ideologically opposed to unions (though I would respectfully suggest that that opinion is worth rethinking - unions won us weekends, 40 hour weeks, health and safety conditions. Again, I work in a country with none, and literally thousands of people die in mines every year. Unions have played a very important role in industrial development.)
But your question has a simple answer:
"More to the point, what shroud could a translators' cartel shake at the various Harry Potter publishers around the planet who want to protect their investment in translation rights and whose biggest fear is instant competition from a volunteer crowd?"
If there were a real "cartel", the threat would be very real. While the company may worry about fan translation, they also have a very pressing need to control the translation themselves. They must control for:
a) Quality - to protect their reputation
b) Trademarking - what if a volunteer translates the word "quidditch" into something new, and WB lose the trademark?
The threat of not producing a professional translation would be a very strong one. But translators are not in a position to make that threat.
It is, however, reasonable to point out unprofessional practice by any large organisation. Asking someone to sign a contract without giving them time to read it properly is unprofessional; asking someone to translate a book in 3 weeks is unprofessional. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:00
Hebrew to English
Stefano Papaleo wrote:
Coerced? If someone hands you a piece of paper where it says they're gonna come tonight and rip your liver off while you're sleeping and if you don't sign it they're gonna tell everyone how bad you are and you DO SIGN, who's fault is it? Because that is what's happened here.
I disagree, I don't think that's what happened here.
I seriously doubt the 3 books she already translated weren't already published, right?
You're missing the point, WB had the clout with the publishers to get them to stop publishing her translation and re-publish someone else's. It's pretty soul-destroying to work hard, get your translations published for a mass-market audience and then to be told if you rock the boat it will all be undone.
Was the Catalan translator a superhuman? Did she end up as a beggar and outcast?
No, but she didn't exactly gain much from falling on her sword though either!
_______________________________________________________________________
"Just Say No" is a great slogan, but it didn't exactly work in the 80s either. As I said, I personally don't believe "no" was a viable option, not when faced with an ultimatum.
[Edited at 2012-06-05 17:25 GMT]
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Stefano Papaleo
Italy
Local time: 14:00
Member (2005)
English to Italian
+ ...
Phil Hand wrote:
Stefano:
"It is ok to discuss bad behaviour but one is not entitled to do it if they accepted such behaviour in the first place, nobody pointed a gun at her."
Er, just no. To give a really obvious comparison: I live in China, where people are famously overworked. If you don't get much of an education, your choice are: go into a factory and work 72 hour weeks; beg. By your logic, those who choose to make a living and get factory work are "not entitled" to complain about how hard the work is.
As Giles said, compare like with like. You're mixing apples with oranges here. Don't' mix up 2 totally different situations.
There a few things that don't convince me in her story and I'll perhaps be talking about them later since I believe they are important to the whole perspective of the case. It's not by mistreating yourself when people treat you badly that you're gonna make things any better so again... her choice.
That's just silly.
It's not silly. It's called consistency and self-respect. How can you ask for understanding when you sing contracts like rock stars sign autographs? She's been mistreated more than once and she keeps working with/for them? What about 'once bitten, twice shy'?
Really, telling anyone they're "not entitled" to talk/complain about their working conditions is silly. People gonna talk. Humans like communicating. And the fact that I choose to work for a certain organisation at a certain time doesn't mean I have to endorse everything they do.
"Not entitled" in the sense that you're not credible. You can express your opinion but it is undermined by you own actions so... you might as well keep it for yourself and think twice before accepting lousy terms. It's not an accident, it's something you did what you were doing.
I havent' read a single word of self-criticism from her, anything of the sort: "I know I made a big mistake but I had to make a living... or... I was young... unexperienced... in a hurry... WHATEVER". Or... I thought it was the right thing to do at the time but now.... All the blame lies with the big gorilla. It's like letting the burglars in, offer them a cup of coffee and then complaining they stole your silverware. Did she care about her profession, her integrity, self-respect or just about being part of the HP bandwagon?? Because the choices she made talk.
It's not the factory worker in China working his/ass off 24/7 without complaining because otherwise his/her family will be on the street the next morning.
"Exactly. Either you have real bargaining power or you have none."
This is also silly. The world isn't black and white, and it isn't all about power relations. Things like respect, standards and professionalism are important.
Again, it isn't silly, it's life, how things work whether we like it or not. Why do you think WB came up with such a bully behavior towards her and not Ms. Rowling? Hint: power.
If there were a real "cartel", the threat would be very real.
Again, if there were WB wouldn't act like the Sopranos. Back to square one.
[quote]
While the company may worry about fan translation
[quote]
They don't... it's publicity and - as already said before - it's what they're gonna take advantage of in the future. So much for professional translation.
, they also have a very pressing need to control the translation themselves. They must control for:
a) Quality - to protect their reputation
b) Trademarking - what if a volunteer translates the word "quidditch" into something new, and WB lose the trademark?
It's unofficial material (in clear violation of copyright) so they don't lose either image or trademark and they can even sue you.
The threat of not producing a professional translation would be a very strong one. But translators are not in a position to make that threat.
See that it's again all about bargaining power?
It is, however, reasonable to point out unprofessional practice by any large organisation.
And translators alike. Again: what's so different here than the lots of I-accepted-100k-words-in-1-week-for-$300-and-never-got-paid?
Asking someone to sign a contract without giving them time to read it properly is unprofessional; asking someone to translate a book in 3 weeks is unprofessional.
And so is signing it and accepting the deadline. Besides, I do not believe a word about that fact of not being able to read it. The whole story is full of loose ends.
| | | | Giles Watson
Italy
Local time: 14:00
Italian to English
In memoriam | Wishful thinking | Jun 5, 2012 |
Phil Hand wrote:
If there were a real "cartel", the threat would be very real.
But there isn't and it isn't.
While the company may worry about fan translation, they also have a very pressing need to control the translation themselves.
If the Harry P publishers mentioned in this thread are safeguarding quality, they are going about it in a very peculiar fashion. Their strategy seems to be focused above all on damage limitation. Quality would only come into the equation if the crowd-translators were eliminated. This would be a pity as fan-translations are in effect written by Adam Smith's Invisible Hand in a perfect market where goods are available to everyone for nothing. The actual translations are unlikely to be perfect but they're still probably going be better than MT.
Sooner or later, intellectual property legislation is going to have to take the Cloud into account.
Occupy Translation, anyone?
It is, however, reasonable to point out unprofessional practice by any large organisation.
With you on that one.
Asking someone to sign a contract without giving them time to read it properly is unprofessional; asking someone to translate a book in 3 weeks is unprofessional.
Pots and kettles.
Signing a contract without having it vetted is unprofessional (most existing translators' associations will vet members' contracts). Agreeing to translate a book in three weeks is unprofessional.
[Edited at 2012-06-05 19:24 GMT]
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 14:00
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| Gilibar has nothing to do with this story | Jun 5, 2012 |
The topic under discussion is not about a translator whose rights are taken away by a large, international media concern, but about a publisher who wants to have a book ready before Christmas. It has nothing at all to do with Gilibar's experience (and has nothing in common with it).
| | | | Stefano Papaleo
Italy
Local time: 14:00
Member (2005)
English to Italian
+ ...
| To be verified | Jun 5, 2012 |
Ty Kendall wrote: Stefano Papaleo wrote:
Coerced? If someone hands you a piece of paper where it says they're gonna come tonight and rip your liver off while you're sleeping and if you don't sign it they're gonna tell everyone how bad you are and you DO SIGN, who's fault is it? Because that is what's happened here. I disagree, I don't think that's what happened here. I seriously doubt the 3 books she already translated weren't already published, right? You're missing the point,
No, I'm not and I'm gonna come back on this in more detail. Because that IS a point, and a very important one.
WB had the clout with the publishers to get them to stop publishing her translation and re-publish someone else's. It's pretty soul-destroying to work hard, get your translations published for a mass-market audience and then to be told if you rock the boat it will all be undone.
And so is to sweep your self-respect under the carpet if you wanna still be part of the HP hype.
Life ain't fair but if you're not fair to yourself who will be?
Was the Catalan translator a superhuman? Did she end up as a beggar and outcast?
No, but she didn't exactly gain much from falling on her sword though either!
You don't know that. Besides, how many chances does this one have after that post?;)
_______________________________________________________________________
"Just Say No" is a great slogan, but it didn't exactly work in the 80s either. As I said, I personally don't believe "no" was a viable option, not when faced with an ultimatum.
[Edited at 2012-06-05 17:25 GMT]
Yet it's what we keep repeating in this forum from the dawn of time.
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Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:00
Hebrew to English
Samuel Murray wrote: The topic under discussion is not about a translator whose rights are taken away by a large, international media concern, but about a publisher who wants to have a book ready before Christmas. It has nothing at all to do with Gilibar's experience (and has nothing in common with it).
What they are doing now is merely a continuation of what they started with Harry Potter translators, including Gili.
To borrow a phrase: "same s**t different day".
The original Intralingo article also linked in Gili's article, so I'm not the only one who thought so:
http://intralingo.com/literary-translation-under-threat/
[Edited at 2012-06-05 19:22 GMT]
| | | | BeaDeer (X)
English to Slovenian
+ ...
| Well said, Phil :-) | Jun 5, 2012 |
> The world isn't black and white, and it isn't all about power relations. Things like respect, standards and professionalism are important.<
| | | | Stefano Papaleo
Italy
Local time: 14:00
Member (2005)
English to Italian
+ ...
BeaDeer wrote:
> The world isn't black and white, and it isn't all about power relations. Things like respect, standards and professionalism are important.<
Yes, indeed Bea but... can you please enlighten me as to how this translator did something positive about respect, standards and professionalism for herself or our category by saying 'yessir!' the whole time? Or how she discouraged the big bad wolf from misbehaving the next time???
It really beats me. If someone is disrespecting you, it's not by accepting their disrespect that you solve the problem.
The Finnish translator who refused the hilarious deadline did the right thing, right away.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 14:00
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| They and they @T[he]y | Jun 6, 2012 |
Ty Kendall wrote: Samuel Murray wrote:
The topic under discussion is not about a translator whose rights are taken away by a large, international media concern, but about a publisher who wants to have a book ready before Christmas. It has nothing at all to do with Gili's experience (and has nothing in common with it). What they are doing now is merely a continuation of what they started with Harry Potter translators, including Gili.
The first "they" is WB and the second "they" is Otava.
WB forced translators to sign away their rights, reduce their compensation, and follow style guides that reduce the literary value of the translations while increasing cost-effectiveness of global marketability. Otava is not forcing anyone to do anything (they just have a very tight deadline). Otava does not attempt to reduce translators' compensation or make them follow style guides that care more about profit than art.
There is surprisingly little information about the Otava deal. All we know is that they want the translation done in 3 weeks (though it could be that they mean they want the first draft in 3 weeks) and we know the approximate size of the work in pages (not words). We know that the HP translator turned them down (but we don't know why -- e.g. if he was simply busy with something else at that time, that would be a valid reason to turn Otava down). We don't know how much the translator will be paid, and in fact we don't even know who the translator is.
Factual errors in the blog post
Galleycat's blog is a summary repost of a Three Percent blog post, whose biggest fear is that the translator will deliver an overly direct translation. Fair enough, but: Three Percent also hooked onto a solitary phrase in a German newspaper that the German translation will be published on the same date as the English version. Based on this scrap of information, Three Percent speculates that the German translator must have had access to the book, and smears Otava for not having bothered to offer the same courtesy to its tranlator. However, I think Three Percent had misread it, since all of the news reports about Carlsen and Ullstein's joint venture indicate that the date of the German publication is not yet known (i.e. it is not the same as the English version).
Galleycat (Maryann Yin) is eager to make things seem worse than they are. Galleycat says that Three Percent says that (a) the HP translator refused to do the translation and that (b) he had done so because of strict constraints from Otava. But Three Percent (Chad W Post) doesn't say that -- it only says that the HP translator declined the job, and it does not say why.
Mellville House's (Sal Robinson) interpretation of Timbers' blog post on Intralingo is that the HP translator declined not the job itself but the offer to use three translators simultaneously, but in the light of Timbers' paragraph arrangement I think Timbers meant these as separate, unrelated facts, i.e. that the HP translator declined the entire job.
Who the Finnish translator is
Timbers says that the Finnish translator who accepted the task is a Stephen King translator. Can anyone tell us... has sales of Finnish translations of Stephen King novels dropped significantly since Ilkka took over from Heikki? Has there been many complaints? If the Finnish translator did accept Otava's proposal to use three translators simultaneously, do you think Ilkka did a similar thing when he translated the Stephen King novels?
[Edited at 2012-06-06 07:16 GMT]
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Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:00
Hebrew to English
| They is "the machine" & The Publishers are complicit | Jun 6, 2012 |
Actually, my "they" was referring to what Gili calls "the Harry Potter machine" although in this case "they" merely refers to JK Rowling and "her people" - the wall of people who surround her works, so probably better to think of it as "the machine".
What was learned before is that both the machine and the local publishers were in cahoots....but the party pulling the strings was not the local publishers.
I'm willing to believe that the three week deadline could s... See more Actually, my "they" was referring to what Gili calls "the Harry Potter machine" although in this case "they" merely refers to JK Rowling and "her people" - the wall of people who surround her works, so probably better to think of it as "the machine".
What was learned before is that both the machine and the local publishers were in cahoots....but the party pulling the strings was not the local publishers.
I'm willing to believe that the three week deadline could solely be at Otava's behest (an unfortunate coincidence-if you believe in them), but it sure feels like a brainchild of the machine to me.
Besides, no matter who dreamt it up, I think most people will agree imposing such a deadline strays quite far from the realms of professionalism on their part and makes them look like one of those agencies on the Blueboard with a rather murky record and pushy PMs, not a respectable publisher.
[Edited at 2012-06-06 07:35 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 14:00
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Ty Kendall wrote:
Actually, my "they" was referring to what Gili calls "the Harry Potter machine" although in this case "they" merely refers to JK Rowling and "her people" - the wall of people who surround her works, so probably better to think of it as "the machine".
In none of the blog posts or articles I've read about the Gili issue is it clear that Rowling is behind all this or that she is a part of all this. She wrote a book and then sold the rights to it to WB. Before WB came on the scene, translators typically spoke highly of Rowling. I'm not even sure if Rowling has any powers left to force WB to back off and treat translators nicely.
What was learned before is that both the machine and the local publishers were in cahoots....but the party pulling the strings was not the local publishers.
What Gili wrote was that the publishers were powerless and were bullied by WB into submission. There is no cahoot. WB said to the publishers "you and your translators do this or else we'll break you" and then the publishers delivered the message to the translators. Where did you "learn" about the cahoots that you're talking about? Certainly not in Gili's article.
I'm willing to believe that the three week deadline could solely be at Otava's behest (an unfortunate coincidence -- if you believe in them)...
For a coincidence to exist, there has to be similarities between situations (not merely a gut feeling that they must somehow be related). What are those similarities (between what WB did and what Otava did)? I don't see any (except that both relate to treatment of translators).
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:00
Hebrew to English
| We disagree, let's just leave it at that | Jun 6, 2012 |
1. I never specifically meant to imply that JK Rowling was in the driving seat (although she was clearly a passenger!) And I think it's pretty disingenuous to claim that's what came across. Rowling may not have had powers to do much then (although as far as I'm aware WB aren't on the scene now and yet we get more iffy tactics.....). In any case, JK is not beyond reproach in all this. Even after selling rights, she still had the power to speak up publicly for the translators and "shame" WB into s... See more 1. I never specifically meant to imply that JK Rowling was in the driving seat (although she was clearly a passenger!) And I think it's pretty disingenuous to claim that's what came across. Rowling may not have had powers to do much then (although as far as I'm aware WB aren't on the scene now and yet we get more iffy tactics.....). In any case, JK is not beyond reproach in all this. Even after selling rights, she still had the power to speak up publicly for the translators and "shame" WB into submission. She didn't do this. Draw your own conclusions.
2. So the publishers were themselves coerced - I never stated otherwise. I stated that they were the (perhaps less than willing or at least not completely of their own volition) junior partner in the machinations that unfolded. They still allowed themselves to go ahead with WB, call it cahoots, or call it coercion. It's pretty hard to say which is closer to the truth. Essentially it comes down to what you believe happened, and we happen to believe differently.
3. You say you don't see similarities then you list one. Hmmm.
Similarity:
Situation 1: Treatment of translators who are translating a book written by JK Rowling.
Situation 2: Treatment of translators who are translating a book written by JK Rowling.
In both cases, ill treatment was a result of paranoia and/or self-serving interests relating to money/sales of books etc.
They're similar enough for me.
[Edited at 2012-06-06 09:12 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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